01-08-2002 02:46									#1
	Discussion: Amendment - New Types of Elections for President and Vice President Remove this text

The thread discussing what the best time for turnchats got me thinking. Once school starts up again (in two weeks for me), people's schedules will be far more fixed. If the President and the Vice President are from the same area, then all the turnchats will geared toward that specific area. People from other locations around the globe would have a hard time making the chats.

Here is what I think will fix this problem. Scrap the different elections for Pres and VP. Set up two new different elections. One for the Americas and one for the rest of the world. After the winner is decided from each of these elections, the two will run head to head. The winner would become President and the loser VP. Theorectically, one of them could just concede early, but the change over would happen on the same date as if there was an election so there is little point to mention this in an amendment.

With the two people of this branch in two areas, that would ensure everyone would still be able to attend at least a few turnchats a month. Turnchat times can also be set up around the ministers. For example, if we are at war, the person who is closest to the timezone of the military advisor would be in control for a time. Many ministers do not need to be at every turnchat and can give orders beforehand.

If you need it, here is what the constitution says about the President and Vice President:

quote: President: The President shall physically play the game after referring to his advisors, and generally checking with the people. Once the turns are played the president shall send out the save game file via e-mail only to all the members of his cabinet and any Apolytonia member who specially request it. The Historian and Reporter must receive saves from the end of each turnchat. The President is required to host at least one turnchat a week. The President must have a 2/3 majority before he can change our Government type or mobilize our economy for war. The President has control over drafts. Vice-President: The right hand of the President; he may assist the president in any way currently needed (holding polls, consulting ministers, distributing the save files, etc). In the event the President is unable to play his turn, the Vice-president shall play the turn instead.

	01-08-2002 02:53									#2
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

no objections per say. Just wondering how it would work in practice however.

	01-08-2002 03:03									#3
	Remove this text

I don't think we would run into too many problems. There should probably be something in there to allow the runner up of one election to be VP if no one runs in the other election.

Also, we have gotten along fine so far with heavy use of the VP. Timeline has filled in quite a bit over the past two terms.

	01-08-2002 03:10									#4
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

True, with the people we have now I don't see any problems, and I do see the large benifits it could with your system. However, instead of a prez and VP, I was thinking of something along the lines of Prez Western hemisphere (north & south america), Prez Eastern (Europe, asia, africa & australia) and Vice Prez of antartica or something like. Have people run for all three positions with the VP being from anywhere..... Just kinda rambling on, so I will stop and go home to visit my girlfriend now.... perhaps we will go boating.....
later. GK

	01-08-2002 03:16									#5
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I originally thought of having two presidents, but that was brought up in the Trip/Ninot election and few liked that idea. There are just some powers only one person should have. Maybe there could be one presidential election and two VPs. I don't know.

I'd like everyone's input as quickly as possible. It would be very nice if we could get this amendment passed by next election (though that is highly unlikely).

	01-08-2002 03:31									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

america vs the world? cmon, i dont think thats going to sell (or work, for that matter.) i say, keep the current system. there will always be conflict be for some people, and this will not help this. suppose this, there are two very good candidates for president from the western hemisphere, lets call them Nenot and Uberr, and the only other challenger is a second rate candidate from, i dont know, tibet, lets call him hAngIng_chAd842 (dont want to offend anyone) and that means that either Uberr or Nenot will have to give up the race, making hAngIng_chAd842 the vice prez.

theoretically speaking that is. my point. what if we cant find a good candidate from each hemishphere. we will have a VP a step below someone who wanted to run, but couldnt.

*Strength and Honor!*

	01-08-2002 03:40									#7
	Tired of ads?

Not America in the US but Americas as in the two continents.

I just don't believe the current system would work well later on. Maybe two VPs would be better, but I believe we need two people who can run turnchats from different locations.

	01-08-2002 03:43									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

i know what you meant. (theoretically of course) Nenot is Canadian...

*Strength and Honor!*

	01-08-2002 03:47									#9
	Suffering from ads?

I believe it is clear. We elect the President to lead us and to physically play the game. When Spiffor's or SirRalph's times come, then the turn chat schedule would depend on their needs first, then everyone elses.

I do not see a dilution of leadership to be a good idea as of now. Perhaps real problems will be encountered. We should build that bridge when we get to that river.

	01-08-2002 03:48									#10
	Put an end to popups!

my thoughts exactly, nye, only i didnt word them as eloquently as you

	01-08-2002 03:54									#11
	Support Apolyton

The thing is, school starts for many during the next term. People may lose interest and never come back.

	01-08-2002 03:58									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

i wont be here much (if at all) but next summer, you bet i will be back...

*Strength and Honor!*

edit: i meant when school starts. i will be very active when/if im FM

	01-08-2002 07:12									#13
	Got spare money?

its a good idea in principle, and i thought of it actually not too long ago, but i shot it down for only one reason. maybe you can find away around it

you say the loser of the presidential election would be VP. Now, in principle, that is a beautiful way to do it. But in practice, what if the loser truly is not worthy of a position, but ran in any case, and lost tremendously BECAUSE the public does not think them worthy for the job?

Thats my problem.. what if the election loser truly is a loser?

	01-08-2002 07:14									#14
	Tired of ads?

there is no -good- way to get around it. i dont like the idea...

	01-08-2002 07:16									#15
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I'd be against it... The political issue of having a president and vice president from different parties would be too damaging, especially if (later in the game) there was a real splitting in what the different parties wanted to do. It also doesn't totally solve the time difference problem -- there's also a time difference depending on whre you are in America... it's not as large as with the Americas vs the rest of the world, but it does make a difference, especially when considering people who go to school -- even a single hour too early and some won't be able to make it, and if you go too late, things just get more complicated... Also, having someone else represent 'the rest of the world' is even a bigger logistical headache for that person -- the rest of the world is a big place (dispite what some americans seem to believe ).

Personally, I'd like to try for more turnchats on the weekend (maybe one a day for sat and/or sun) and reduce the importance of the weekday turn chats (maybe by timing those chats towards turns where few decisions will have to be made besides basic unit movements).

Just my suggestion...

-- adaMada

	01-08-2002 07:41									#16
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Apoc, i take it you mean a split based on TIMEZONES, right? Americas (-4 GMT? to - 11 GMT?) and the rest of the world. Just wanted to highlight that because I think some others are misreading your intent here.

	01-08-2002 07:43									#17
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Captain Apoc, i take it you mean a split based on TIMEZONES, right? Americas (-4 GMT? to - 11 GMT?) and the rest of the world. Just wanted to highlight that because I think some others are misreading your intent here.

i fully realised the intent

i just dont see how the proposed system can work without some major flaws.

actually, i had ideas of having a NA crew and Euro crew.. but, simply, i dont think we have enough people to do it.

	01-08-2002 07:59									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Ninot, I didn't mean you in particular.
Anyways, I agree. there will always be problems. i'm not sure the proposal will have more major flaws than the existing status quo. i suppose if it ain't broke, why fix it? but otoh, that's where innovation comes from. always something to learn, even if its from our mistakes

anyhow, I'm impartial. I don't go to turnchats anyways. The reports and the newspaper are fine for me. so maybe i'll just shut up now.

	01-08-2002 08:07									#19
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Ninot its a good idea in principle, and i thought of it actually not too long ago, but i shot it down for only one reason. maybe you can find away around it you say the loser of the presidential election would be VP. Now, in principle, that is a beautiful way to do it. But in practice, what if the loser truly is not worthy of a position, but ran in any case, and lost tremendously BECAUSE the public does not think them worthy for the job? Thats my problem.. what if the election loser truly is a loser?

Well, then the VP in a normal election would be a loser anyway. It isn't like the people who would normally win VP in an election where President and VP are split would just not run. Take last term for election. It would have been Trip, Ninot, Timeline, and Apoc running for President. You can't say the second place guy would suck.

We don't have to have do the elections in the way I originally suggested. What I want to accomplish with an amendment is to assure there is someone who can play turnchats at times more friendly to people who aren't near the same timezones as the present.

I have another idea. Have the president appoint a Secretary of State. This person would be in a timezone different from the president and VP. He would also have to be approved by the voters much like judges. His only power would be to carry out orders of ministers in turnchats. Any deviation can result in immediate expulsion. Does this sound like a more viable option?

Captain: Yes, I am talking about Timezones here.

	01-08-2002 08:13									#20
	Increase Your PM Length

That might work... if the turn chats were totally scripted, then there's no reason that another minister couldn't do it... instead of calling it a Secretary of State, though, I'd call it a Cheif of Staff or something else... Secretary of State sounds too much like a diplomatic position...

-- adaMada

	01-08-2002 08:17									#21
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Apocalypse Well, then the VP in a normal election would be a loser anyway. It isn't like the people who would normally win VP in an election where President and VP are split would just not run. Take last term for election. It would have been Trip, Ninot, Timeline, and Apoc running for President. You can't say the second place guy would suck. We don't have to have do the elections in the way I originally suggested. What I want to accomplish with an amendment is to assure there is someone who can play turnchats at times more friendly to people who aren't near the same timezones as the present. I have another idea. Have the president appoint a Secretary of State. This person would be in a timezone different from the president and VP. He would also have to be approved by the voters much like judges. His only power would be to carry out orders of ministers in turnchats. Any deviation can result in immediate expulsion. Does this sound like a more viable option? Captain: Yes, I am talking about Timezones here.

now THAT i can aprove!

	01-08-2002 08:30									#22
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by adaMada That might work... if the turn chats were totally scripted, then there's no reason that another minister couldn't do it... instead of calling it a Secretary of State, though, I'd call it a Cheif of Staff or something else... Secretary of State sounds too much like a diplomatic position...

Just to have one person set person in control. Also, the more minister level people in chats, the easier it is for them to run.

And I don't care what this position is called, I just threw an idea for a name out. This is what this thread is for, getting ideas out there so we can decide on something that will help more people experience turnchats.

	01-08-2002 08:44									#23
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Apocalypse Just to have one person set person in control. Also, the more minister level people in chats, the easier it is for them to run. And I don't care what this position is called, I just threw an idea for a name out. This is what this thread is for, getting ideas out there so we can decide on something that will help more people experience turnchats.

Yea, my name suggestion was a pretty stupid thing to say -- it really doesn't matter what the job's called . Apologies for any insult. I've only listened in on one turnchat (trying to make more), but if the ministers are suggesting action in the ministers room, then that's def. the way to go (with one person). It does leave the question, however, of what happens about ministers who can't make it -- I know ministers already have a system of sending along their recommendations to the President when they can't make it, but that system would probably need minor modifications for this... I really can't think of any major obsticles, though, so I say we do it . It'd be nice to get more turns out of the way, especially when we're only dealing with 'housekeeping' stuff and we're not in any wars.

Just my two cents...

-- adaMada

	01-08-2002 08:50									#24
	Increase Your PM Length

I wasn't insulted. I'm just saying that I really don't care what it is called and if people have a better idea, put it on the table. I'd like an idea out there by next election that would help people outside the Americas come to turnchats.

These turnchats run by my theorectical position don't have to be long. They can be only a couple short intermediate turns. Just something to help move the game along and allow more people to participate.

	01-08-2002 10:28									#25
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Ninot its a good idea in principle, and i thought of it actually not too long ago, but i shot it down for only one reason. maybe you can find away around it you say the loser of the presidential election would be VP. Now, in principle, that is a beautiful way to do it. But in practice, what if the loser truly is not worthy of a position, but ran in any case, and lost tremendously BECAUSE the public does not think them worthy for the job? Thats my problem.. what if the election loser truly is a loser?

No time to make a decent post or even think about this ( it's pub crawl tiiiiiiimmmeeee!!!!!!!! ), but I just wanted to add a possible solution to this. Have a vote-of-no-confidence option for each candidate, thus the unsuitable would be seen to be so in the results and disqualified.

	01-08-2002 20:03									#26
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

One word: No!

	01-08-2002 21:14									#27
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Proserpine One word: No!

It'd be far more constructive if you explain why.

	01-08-2002 22:01									#28
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Idea. Hold election for prez as normal. Whoever wins, from wherever wins.

The prez appoints two VP's, from different timezones. The any one of the three can set up and play the game.

Also, I like the idea of the sec/state or chief/staff or whatever it is called. However, I would give that person the same ability in playing the game as the VP currently has, else they are hamstrung in playing if ANYTHING unexpected comes up without the appropriate minister (and realize, this would make havic for the ministers schedules) isn't present.

	01-08-2002 22:15									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

This new position wouldn't need orders from that specific minister. Others ministers could fill in for absent ministers.

	03-08-2002 21:28									#30
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

hi ,

we could always start several "sub"-games , one for europe , one for the states , etc , .....

BUT , that would ruin the pure fun in the game , think of how long it has been done in civ2 , no splitting up there , .......

we could ask the gods to set up several servers , .....but that shall only happen when there are like a Zillion users , ......

in short , its fun to have people from all over the world , ...

when one does not like the fact that a lot of people come from certain region , well , just vote , introduce the game to people you know , from you geographic region , ......

we should not split !

have a nice day or night