01-08-2002 19:59									#1
	Ubergorsk: a grim scenario Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I fear the worst for Ubergorsk. Unless we take some radical steps it should soon fall to the hands of the Persians.
Persia is very prune to attack Ubergorks since it is a very aggressive civilization (4 out of 5 aggression points) and it depends on iron to build its UU (AFAIK a civilization is more likely to attack another civ if that civ possesses a resource which is required for the production of the attacking civ's UU). I'm afraid that if Persia attacks us we will have very little hope of defending Ubergorsk.

Therefore I think it should be one of our primary goals to turn Ubergorsk from a weak point to our stronghold in the Northeast. There are several ways to accomplish this:

* Transfer as many garrison units as quickly as possible to Ubergorsk.
* Build a wall around Ubergorsk or send many workers to join Ubergorsk and give it 6 population points which will create the same defensive effect (only if we're desperate).
* Give in to any reasonable demands made by Persia. I'd hate to sound cowardly but I am positive that the Persians will declare war if they make a demand and it is not met by us, and a war against Persian immortals is the last thing we need right now (remember: we still rely heavily on archers as our assault force).
* Finally, raze it if we find ourselves in a war with Persia and it seems likely that they win it the next turn. We could guard the area with a strong garrison force until we can bring a new settler.

P.S. We might wanna get a new government type quickly, start a revolution and money-rush a wall and/or some garrison units since the Persians are likely to attack soon. Luckily we don't have to bother about anarchy since we're a religious civ.

--Edit--
Another thought: if we establish a trade route with Persia and commence in trade and/or sign a military alliance against one of our neighbors (IMHO they're more likely to agree to attack France) the Persians will probably postpone their plans to invade Ubergorsk..

Last edited by Shiber on 01-08-2002 at 20:11

	01-08-2002 20:15									#2
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Couldn't we convince them to fight someone else right now? I'm pretty sure there's some Civ they are close to that doesn't border us.

	01-08-2002 20:17									#3
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Without Iron, they can't build Immortals. Without Immortals, the Persians will not be as much of a threat. But I agree about the need for a strong defense. I would send over another spearmen, just in case. Still, the threat exists, and must be examined carefully. Also, the Persians are annoyed with us right now, not a good omen.

edit: we could tried to get the Persians and English to fight each other, but that should be a last resort. The English will help the Germans keep the Aztecs contained.

	01-08-2002 20:17									#4
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Yeah, the Brits.

Then again, as they're annoyed with us (according to the latest reports), we may have some trouble convincing them.

I, for one, would like to also try and secure further iron sources if Ubergorsk proves vulnerable. Don't the Americans have iron in or near their territory?

	01-08-2002 20:30									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Donal Graeme Without Iron, they can't build Immortals. Without Immortals, the Persians will not be as much of a threat.

That doesn't change the fact that they're 2nd in the historiograph...
AFAIK no civilization possesses any swordsmen or UUs based on swordsmen at the moment, but an assault wave of Persian archers is a threat to consider, esp. because the Persians have a large empire and muchos populations so a 2nd wave is likely to follow.

	01-08-2002 20:43									#6
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The Persians do have, or will soon have, access to other sources of iron. (I don't know if this makes the Persian AI less aggressive.)
In any event, we do need some build up here.
Is it worth considering a Machiavellian ploy, namely, setting up an embassy and preparing for a possible military alliance against Persia? Who would make a likely ally? England? How much would it cost, and could we afford it? It seems to me we can probably handle the Persians, at this point. But if the Germans take advantage of the situation, and also declare war against us (they always seem to be doing things like this, in my games), then we'd be in serious $H!T. Call it Case Seriously Blue.

	01-08-2002 21:05									#7
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If the Germans decide to try and stab us in the back, I say we get an embassy with the Aztecs and arrange a military alliance against the Germans. But hopefully this will not need be, and a large scale war doesn't come to pass.

	01-08-2002 21:10									#8
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An alliance _against_ Persia is not such a good idea. After all, we are trying to avoid a war with Persia, not start one, and if we ally against Persia then surely they'll hit Ubergorsk first (it's reasonable to assume that the AI's top priorities during wartime include robbing the enemy of its resources).

	01-08-2002 21:20									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber An alliance _against_ Persia is not such a good idea. After all, we are trying to avoid a war with Persia

Absolutely right. I should clarify: this would be a contingency plan to handle the situation if and when Persia declares war.

	01-08-2002 22:02									#10
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I think we should prebuild 10 shields and poprush a temple.

	01-08-2002 22:05									#11
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The persians have access to other sourses of iron. Once they have the resourse, they will not be too likely to attack. But yes, a good defence never does hurt. Perhaps some walls along with 3 defence units.....

	01-08-2002 23:08									#12
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IMO A temple would be more valuable than city walls defensively. Just get that pop up to 6, get mil units there. A good show of strength is in order.

	01-08-2002 23:18									#13
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I'm starting to think an alliance with Germany against Persia would be the best way to go. If we act fast enough we knock out theyre ironbefore its connected (as of now I believe its not even withing their borders, just outside) and cripple their civilization so its no longer a threat.

	01-08-2002 23:27									#14
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Alliance against france?

This really is a dilly of a pickle.

	01-08-2002 23:50									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Pythagoras IMO A temple would be more valuable than city walls defensively. Just get that pop up to 6, get mil units there. A good show of strength is in order.

This would take too many turns, unless we increase the population artificially by settling workers into Ubergorsk (which would mean we'll lose 5 workers).
IMHO it would be best to build a temple while we send more units to guard Ubergorsk.

	02-08-2002 00:17									#16
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While I do not discount the possibility of Persia going to war with us, I think their main avenues of attack will most likely be towards the English_the land on which Ubergorsk and Munich sits is pretty crappy land, while the Englihs have nice lands to north and will be in a serious disadvantage once immortals come online, which is inevitable since the ersians do have the ability to get other sources of iron than that at Ubergorsk. Also, lets not forget that the Germans have planty of land to the north to expand and floodplain cities that will give them the pop. to do this, and their aggression level is 5 of 5..

	02-08-2002 00:49									#17
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Proposals for a diplomatic solution to the Persian problem:

Plan #1:
Action: setting up an embassy at Persepolis.
Cost: 39 gold.
Gains: an embassy at Persia which we'll need if we are to sign a military alliance with them, a free investigation of Persepolis and improved relations with Persia (changed from annoyed to cautious).

Plan #2:
Action: setting up an embassy and signing a rights of passage agreement.
Cost: 51 gold and world map or 55 gold.
Gains (in addition to plan #1's): greatly improved relations with Persia (changed from annoyed to polite!). Persia becomes a more likely ally against Germany or England if they choose to attack.

Any thoughts on this?

Edit: all of this won't be necessary if the Germans and the Persians are really at war. Both are powerful nations, both are at war and neither would want a 2nd front. Even if they do attack us, they won't divert a lot of troops to our front.
We need to be absolutely sure they're at war if we're going to count on this, and above all we'll need to know when they make peace.

Last edited by Shiber on 02-08-2002 at 01:00