01-08-2002 21:08									#1
	Machiavelli Institute: Diplomatic Preperations for Case Pink/Plan Gold Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I believe we should look into diplomatic plans to assist with Case Pink, a potential attack on France. We should investigate Greece's feelings towards France, and what we could give them to declare War on France if we should find ourselves in a situation where a two front war would be useful, and we should check that there are no other nations who are overly friendly towards the French or who rely on France for resources, luxuries, or technology. In short, we should investigate the diplomatic affects of Case Pink, and how we can turn them in our favor.

-- adaMada

Last edited by adaMada on 03-08-2002 at 22:21

	01-08-2002 21:16									#2
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Great idea for a thread, adaMada!
The idea of allying with Greece against France was aired earlier. Many (myself included) came down against the idea, not wanting to either strengthen Greece (by encouraging them to take French cities) or share in spoils of war.

On the other hand, the idea of preparing diplomatic moves, or at least potential diplomatic moves, to seal off other fronts strikes me as a wise move.

We should prepare for a scenario in which, while we are immersed in war with France, with most of our military stationed in the west, either Persia or Germany take advantage of the situation and declare war against us. Perhaps by cultivating the English -- at least by setting up an embassy there (if people agree they would make a useful ally).

We'd need someone well-positioned in Abananaba Major, to be able to divert our enemy. And IMO, we wouldn't want to strengthen the Aztecs by drawing them into a war while we are elsewhere engaged: they'd scoop up a lot of valuable German and/or Persian cities.

	01-08-2002 21:19									#3
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Ally with Greece against France? I don't think we need it. We were afraid that we'll have too many useless Swordsmen left over after the war.

	01-08-2002 21:25									#4
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Yes, I agree -- I wouldn't begin the war by allying with Greece against France. But I believe that, should we be attacked by another nation trying to take advantage of our situation, then it might become a good idea to have Greece deal with France so we can address the new threat -- or, as Robber Baron suggested, have another nation to ally with against the new threat. I thought it'd be a good idea to at least start thinking about stuff like this -- personally, I think it's very likely that, once we're in a war with France, Germany or Persia will attack. We should start thinking about the cost of 'buying' an ally if we get into a war we're not prepared for, and should perhaps even have what we think it would take 'set aside' before we impliment Case Pink.

Just a few more random thoughts...

-- adaMada

	02-08-2002 00:25									#5
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I say it is too early to gauge the diplomatic situation currently since we are planning a war almost 20 turns from now, which will mean a different situation. Today France is militarily very weak, so I would not advice letting the Greeks get stronger, plus they lack iron, so while their Hoplites make them hard to attack, is not like thier offensive power is great. I would urge a good relation with Persia since I see Germany, which is closer and big a greater threat to us than Xerxes immortals, and also a good relation to the Aztecs. Good relations with them might cost us with England, but they are far away. I would also add that if the french campaign goes well, as it should, we will have to dabble in the politics of Anabana Minor, and Ceaser, who seeks to become dominant in the region soon, and Russia which might be the secondary power and a future neighbor.

	02-08-2002 13:28									#6
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Today France is militarily very weak...

Where did you get that from? The Foreign Advisor (in the game) claims their military is the same size as ours.

It may be true what you say, but we can't be sure and leave things to chance.

	02-08-2002 13:46									#7
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The last time I checked they had no archers, only spearmen. This means it would take them some time to assemble a counterattack, where in the mean time we will conquer some of their cities and maybe get a few more through diplomacy.

	03-08-2002 03:38									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber The last time I checked they had no archers, only spearmen. This means it would take them some time to assemble a counterattack, where in the mean time we will conquer some of their cities and maybe get a few more through diplomacy.

I don't know France's military situation, but even if they have no spearmen, consider this scenerio...

We attack France, but are not able to take any enemy cities, through bad luck (hypothetically). Our first attacking force is nearly wiped out, and France will not agree to peace. Suddenly, Persia/Germany declare war, and our resources must be devoted to dealing with the threat from them.

Though there are clearly diplomatic options for dealing with France and Persia, that's not the question we're dealing with in this thread (discussion on that could probably go at War Academy/Machiavelli Institute: Defensive Case North/West. Instead, how do we ensure that France doesn't have time to build up an offensive force and attack us? Our cities (in general) are not so well defended that they couldn't damage us if they pushed some offensive units through.

In other words, if something went very wrong, and we found ourselves unable to deal with France militarially (our attention being elseware), how could we deal with France diplomatically? Do we have any luxuries that they want, and might take in return for a peace plan favorable to us? Would Greece agree to ally with us against France, and in return for what? Those are the types of things I want to consider now, so we can make some proper preparations.

quote: Originally posted by GePap I say it is too early to gauge the diplomatic situation currently since we are planning a war almost 20 turns from now, which will mean a different situation. [...]

Just addressing this one point in GePaps post (I agree with most of the other things he said) -- I do understand that it will be a while before we can start making really specific plans, but I'd like to have some general ideas thrown out there should we need them. For instance, if lots of the thoughts we have revolve around trading luxuries, then it might be to our benefit to have the extra luxuries we have connected to our network, so we can trade them when the time comes. Again, just a general idea...

-- adaMada

	03-08-2002 04:05									#9
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quote: Originally posted by adaMada For instance, if lots of the thoughts we have revolve around trading luxuries, then it might be to our benefit to have the extra luxuries we have connected to our network, so we can trade them when the time comes. Again, just a general idea... -- adaMada

Unfortunately, in my experience AI civs place much less value on luxuries in the early stages of the game (while population levels are low).
Extra resources, on the other hand, can be powerful bargaining chips. (Tho' we don't have any extra. )

[Edit: added thought: The AI civs don't place much exchange value on luxury trading, but they make useful gifts and do improve attitudes. We would need to build roads to trading partners, however.)

	03-08-2002 04:12									#10
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It would take the French quite a while to assemble a counterattack since they currently have no archers at hand. In addition to that, the best offensive units they can produce are archers and horsemen since they don't have access to iron yet (and judging from the latest maps it would take them at least until we attack to link up their iron tile).
To sum up, it would take them a while to establish a counter offensive and even if they do, we should be able to hold them off with our garrisoning spearmen (or if we'll get Feudalism by then, pikemen upgraded from spearmen) since they'll only have archers and horsemen in their attack force.

	03-08-2002 04:13									#11
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If we sign a military alliance, then declare peace in less than 20 turns, does our rep drop?

	03-08-2002 05:42									#12
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Epistax :
Yes.

I think we shouldn't ally with anyone against France : our military is strong, and I don't think France should be wiped out of the planet : it will still be a stamp state between us and the southern threat (Romans, Russians or Iroqs), and we should favor them as much as we can, to let them calm down. Having someone who wages your defensive wars is much better, esp. when you're a Republic.

But I think we should avoid making enemies : Now that we have an embassy in Greece and Persia, we should have a RoP with them, in order to improve our relationships. This way, should the need arise, the 2 most powerfuls civs will be prone to ally with us, rather than against us.

	03-08-2002 05:47									#13
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What's this nonsense about Case Pink? An archer rush isn't going to work again. Plan Gold appears to be the leading war plan now.

	03-08-2002 22:21									#14
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I thought Case Pink was the plan name for an attack on France, and Plan Gold was the current production plan on how to get the units to attack France. Either way, we're talking about the same thing .

-- adaMada

Edit: I edited the title of my first post to reflect that this includes Plan Gold; when I refered to Plan Pink, I was really talking about a war on France in general. My mistake for any confusion.

	03-08-2002 23:43									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Epistax : Yes. Now that we have an embassy in Greece and Persia, we should have a RoP with them, in order to improve our relationships. This way, should the need arise, the 2 most powerfuls civs will be prone to ally with us, rather than against us.

Why do you want plenty of Greeks and Persians wandering in our wonderful banana plantations ?

	03-08-2002 23:52									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Now that we have an embassy in Greece and Persia, we should have a RoP with them, in order to improve our relationships. This way, should the need arise, the 2 most powerfuls civs will be prone to ally with us, rather than against us.

I support this proposal, though I'm afraid it may backfire upon us.
I'd like to hear people's responses and comments on this. You should definitely start a thread.

	03-08-2002 23:53									#17
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT Why do you want plenty of Greeks and Persians wandering in our wonderful banana plantations ?

Might not be a bad idea, at least for the Persians -- it should stop em from feeling inclined to attack us until we've had time to execute Plan Gold. That's one of the biggest dangers right now -- if the Persians or Germans attack us before we finish the units created with Plan Gold, and if they mount a serious attack against our iron sources, we're toast.

-- adaMada