02-08-2002 09:43									#31
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory btw who are "you guys". Im getting really sick of people on this forum lumping the actions of ancestors together with people today.

So? You're a nation. The Palestinians are a nation. I didn't see you clamoring about referring to them collectively as lying...

	02-08-2002 09:43									#32
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory Of course its fine with you. You hate Israel and you dont really care about palestine. You just hope they can kill as many israeli's as possible.

Your accusation has no ground fg. I demand an apology.

quote: Originally posted by faded glory Moral Equivlancy is crap

It is? Your illogic is puzzling and your moral grounding is appalling. What you are staying here is some peoples are better than other peoples. The "superior" peoples can do whatever they want to the "inferior"ones, but the "inferior" ones are not allowed to fight back.

Great stance.

	02-08-2002 09:45									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller well, that was because we wanted a rebellion it was all PR a lot more died when Britain tried to take our cities also there were a lot less people arround back then what is true is that taking urban (or rural) areas of a hostile populace will result in deaths, no ifs ands or buts about it the question than becomes, to determine wether it is a massacre or not, is wether the number of deaths was uneedfully high Jon Miller

How about all the Loyalists who were either hanged, assaulted or chased out of town, and had their property stolen to boot?

	02-08-2002 09:47									#34
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Bloody colonials.

	02-08-2002 09:53									#35
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Dino, yeah, I should have included 'apart from the pro-Israelis'.

I was referring to this part though:

quote: Of course, it seems to show that those who claim to trust the UN only do so when it supports what they want to believe, which would lead one to think that they are anti-what's that word?

I don't know who this statement is directed to...

	02-08-2002 12:03									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger "Moral Equivalency is crap." (FG) It is? Your illogic is puzzling and your moral grounding is appalling. What you are staying here is some peoples are better than other peoples. The "superior" peoples can do whatever they want to the "inferior"ones, but the "inferior" ones are not allowed to fight back. Great stance.

UR,

I think he is actually referring to making the purposeful murder of civilians and the accidental killing of civilians (due to the fact that combatants are co-locating with civilians in civilian areas for this exact purpose) morally equivalent by dismissing both events as run of the mill warfare. Or as Apolyton's resident Israel haters like to do, condemning any Israeli action while refusing to condemn obvious and numerous cases of Palestinian murder of Israeli and other civilians. Ironically, this line of reasoning is only going to lead to another form of equivalence when the Israelis have really had enough and start firing time on target barrages into Palestinian funerals and demonstrations, or cutting off all water and food to Palestinian towns and telling a shocked world, "Let them eat bombs."

The conclusions you reach in your statement are the ones that make no sense in relation to what FG said in his. Are you saying that murdering civilians is an appropriate means of fighting back? If so why wouldn't it be appropriate for the other side to do the same? This is the sort of equivalence which has been a long standing basis for the laws of war. Is this no longer valid? Do we have to make sure that every side in a conflict has an equal amount of power before any laws apply to the weaker side? That will drag every conflict out forever and cause a lot of casualties, but I suppose no price is too great to pay for "justice".

	02-08-2002 12:10									#37
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Exactly

Too many examples of this in history to count........

	02-08-2002 13:02									#38
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Since when Israelis notice UN?

	02-08-2002 13:20									#39
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Since when they actually agree with one part of a long long report.

Don't worry, they'll ignore everything about human rights violations and war crimes as soon as possible.

	02-08-2002 13:34									#40
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Is this thread another MEDL?

Well, yes. UN confirmed, that there was no massacre in Jenin. But can we trust the UN delegacy, that made the investigation? This was not the delegacy originally appointed by the UN (because Israel denied that group). And now the result is this with a group approved by Israel. This is one of those 'things that make you go '

	02-08-2002 14:13									#41
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I expected it to come much earlier.

Because this delegation is not filled with anti semites prejudiced against Israel it cant be trusted. Yep.

	02-08-2002 14:20									#42
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Eli; do you mean, that because 'this delegation is not filled with anti semites prejudiced against Israel', everything this delegation says, must be the absolute truth?

Why should the rest of the world believe anything this delegation says? Was it approved by the palestines also? If so, then there is no problem

	02-08-2002 14:26									#43
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So Eli, do you think Mr. Ahtisaari and his delegation are "anti-semites prejudiced against Israel"?

	02-08-2002 14:27									#44
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How hard is it for you to accept that sometimes, sometimes, Israel can be right?

The Palestinians still claim it's a massacre, and that Israel uses strippers to seduce stone throwers and kill them.

	02-08-2002 14:39									#45
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Israel has been so many times wrong, now I'm just being sceptic

Don't lose your lunch on this, boy.

	02-08-2002 23:48									#46
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I ain't saying Israel is wrong here Eli. In fact I always thought it very unlikely that the IDF could have lost control enough to cause a massacre.
I'm just wondering why, for you, it seems that the credibility of an organisation depends on the conclusions it comes to. When the UN's Ahtisaari commission was coming to Jenin, you got your panties all twisted up on their supposed unfair bias, but now that the UN found there was no massacre, there's suddenly nothing wrong with the organisation. You seem to assume that there can only be bias in decisions or findings that go against Israel.

	03-08-2002 00:18									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger How about all the Loyalists who were either hanged, assaulted or chased out of town, and had their property stolen to boot?

The survivors relocated to Montreal and have been pissing the locals ever since...

	03-08-2002 04:00									#48
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quote: There was indeed a massacre.

Hmmm it's interesting that 500 people being killed, most of them armed, as direct and undirect result of heavy fighting (READ: both sides were shooting) is a massacare.

I'll go update my dictionary.

	03-08-2002 04:11									#49
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quote: Or as Apolyton's resident Israel haters like to do, condemning any Israeli action while refusing to condemn obvious and numerous cases of Palestinian murder of Israeli and other civilians.

*cough* CyberGnu *cough*

quote: That will drag every conflict out forever and cause a lot of casualties, but I suppose no price is too great to pay for "justice".

bingo.

quote: I'm just wondering why, for you, it seems that the credibility of an organisation depends on the conclusions it comes to.

Can't a girl change it's mind?

quote: When the UN's Ahtisaari commission was coming to Jenin, you got your panties all twisted up on their supposed unfair bias, but now that the UN found there was no massacre, there's suddenly nothing wrong with the organisation. You seem to assume that there can only be bias in decisions or findings that go against Israel.

Look, we didn't mind the UN coming here and checking.

We did mind, the UN sending people who are known to be anti-Israeli or people who are not war experts.

And we did manage to stop the suggested people from coming to Israel.

But don't forget - it was Israel that originally suggested the idea of an inquiry! We denied it only after finding out who they intended to send this way.

It is obvious that if you're going to send peaceniks to a war zone they are going to find all sorts of humanitarian problems. DUH! It's a war zone! What Israel wanted is military experts, who know how a normal war zone looks, that could tell whether Israel used too much force and whether a massacare occured.

	03-08-2002 04:17									#50
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Btw, Jaakko, I missed you

I appriciate your POV and I consider you fair. But you don't troll half as well as you used to

	03-08-2002 04:23									#51
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Okay, just where can I find evidence that there were "anti-Israel" people on the commission? Mere allegations don't fly too far.
And as far as military expertise goes, one should think that the former general included in the team would have been enough. At least that was what everyone except Israel thought.

	03-08-2002 04:32									#52
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I'm working on the trolling bit Siro, I'm just expending all my talent on some morons on other boards...

I have a lot of respect for you resident Israelis, especially now that I've seen the fanatics on a certain Finnish news forum (all sane people have fled the place by now).

Edit: and I've missed you too.

	03-08-2002 06:33									#53
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Well I remember reading somewhere that a "massacre" technically would have to consist of more that 3 people murdered...so if let's say "just" 15 innocents died, then it's a massacre by those standards.

I believe that, had the UN been given complete access to both the israeli and the palestian views and evidence plus a field examination of the site ASAP, then it's findings could be considered wholly accurate.

	03-08-2002 09:52									#54
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Well, there were several people, most known to be anti-Israeli. Terrie Larsen for once, who is a stupid fool, and declared this a massacare even before he came. Another woman whose title and name I don't recall, but I recall reading that she was a rabid anti-Israeli.

One was the previous chairman of the red cross and crescent, who is accused of being anti-semitic. He refused to accept the red shield of david into the union, and compared the shield of david with the swaistika.

And just think - one general compared to 4 peacenik softies in an inquiry about war.

It's like letting 4 war-like feminisits and a guy sit in an iquiry board having something to do with men. Catch my drift?

About dem Israelis - feel free to bring them here. I think CyberGnu and S Kroeze get bored of me. Probably bored of listening only to themselves though

It's nice though to talk to someone who will actually listen and invent some logical phallacy to post.

Natan (very very smart 14 y/o jew) left. Che declared me victorious and left after some pro-Israelis dragged him into a several hours long marathon. what's funnier is that it wasn't at all planned. Simply the Israelis in different time zones changed, and che remained, until he got tired and declared he submits to me

	03-08-2002 10:48									#55
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quote: cough* CyberGnu *cough*

?

	03-08-2002 22:06									#56
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu Ned, where on earth did you get that idea that I claim hundreds of people died in Jenin?

hi ,

maybe he got it from your post's , right after you saw on cnn the name "jenin" , ......and started to tell here that we where killing thousands of people , ......
like we do every day , ......

have a nice day

	03-08-2002 22:10									#57
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Hi panag. Where have you been?

	03-08-2002 22:13									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Eli Hi panag. Where have you been?

hi ,

hunting , ......

you know , the favorite pasttime for Jews and Israeli's , ...

have a nice day

	03-08-2002 22:14									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Eli Hi panag. Where have you been?

hi ,

somewhere with the feet in the air , away from everything , .... > VACATION , ....

and when are you going on holidays , ...?

have a nice day

	03-08-2002 22:26									#60
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"Yet again, Palestinian Claims Are Proven to Be False By the UN."

It just seems weird that the Israelis are going "Told you so" when an organisation they labelled anti-semitic repeatedly in the past has agreed with their versions of events.