02-08-2002 01:40									#1
	The Great Library Suffering from ads?

It seems that several civs are competing with each other on the completion of The Great Pyramids. This is good news for us since all of them but one will lose all the shields they gathered when this wonder is completed. OTOH this could also prove to be bad for us since one of the civs might divert its efforts towards building The Great Library and will build it ahead of us.
I understand that many people here would like to see The Great Library built in Apolytonia. However, by the time The Great Pyramids will be completed, everyone will have Literature and then those civilizations that are building the pyramids will divert their efforts towards the colossus, the great lighthouse, the oracle... or the great library. If any one of those civs chooses the latter then we could kiss all those free techs goodbye.

The Great Library is a valuable wonder. It can save us a lot of money as well as improve our international rating (AFAIK AIs fear civilizations with wonders more than they fear civilizations w/o wonders). I really think we should build it, but only if we can come up with some plan that'll make sure we'll be the ones to complete it in the end.

Any thoughts on this?

	02-08-2002 02:05									#2
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They will not, unfortunately, loose the shields. Once they loose the race for pyramids, they will switch over to the next wonder, keeping all of their shields. Then once they loos that one, they switch to the next, and so on. They do it the same way we do.

Ya, I think we all would love to have this wonder. However, I do not see it as possible (unless Paris builds it first, then as we will own paris soon....)

Good thought though.

	02-08-2002 02:13									#3
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Do we have any idea/estimate on how long the other civs hae been working on thier wonders, that is how many shields they may already have invested and how close they are?

	02-08-2002 02:29									#4
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We know the Persians will complete Pyramids in ca. 14 turns, ans the Greeks ca. 35 turns.

	02-08-2002 02:52									#5
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I wish we could conquer Persepolis...

Anyway, this would prove to be an extra advantage to conquering Paris. If they're building a wonder, which is likely, we'll get all the shields they collected so far. Heck, maybe we'll even get the great library if the rest of the civs concentrate on the oracle, the great lighthouse or the colossus.

	02-08-2002 02:56									#6
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great library? not possible.

	02-08-2002 03:01									#7
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Why don't we let the Persians complete it, then take it from the Persians. Persia's just a future province of Apolytonia anyway....

	02-08-2002 03:19									#8
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I'm afraid by the time we take Persepolis The Great Library will be obsolete.

Anyway, here's a point in favor of invading France rather than Persia as some suggested: we'll get Paris which is probably building a wonder from the early stages of the game (AIs usually do that from my experience), which means a wonder for roughly half the price or maybe even less than that.

P.S. There's a slight chance that we'll get a leader. Then we'll be able to get a wonder for free. But then again, we'll probably use it to build an army first and win a battle with it so we could build a heroic epic.

	02-08-2002 04:34									#9
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Would it be possible to rush a few workers to 'poly, build a few mines in fertile places around it, and then add to the pop? Emphisize production at all cost within the city? If we delayed whatever war we decide is next and put all our resources into the Great Library, is there any chance we could get it? We could devote more money into entertainment and get WLTK day empire-wide (something that might be worth doing anyway)...

Just a thought... I'd love to have the Great Library next, but it doesn't look so good...

-- adaMada

	02-08-2002 11:27									#10
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I don't think it's possible to come back on the AI for this : they have production bonuses (emperor level) and they begun long before us. Plus, their capital cities are bigger, and (in Persepolis) they're producing about as much as our woodly capital.

	02-08-2002 18:08									#11
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poly isn't on a river, so max size is 6 pop until we build an aquaduct. I think we would be better off devoting our resources to our overall infrastructure than to push on one city that probably wouldn't be able to accomplish what you want anyways.

	02-08-2002 18:56									#12
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I wasn't actually suggesting we use poly. We have some cities that are near rivers. Perhaps we'll be able to use them as wonder factories in the future.
Anyway I rather prefer the idea of capturing enemy cities with wonders or capturing cities that are constructing a wonder and continuing their wonder.

	02-08-2002 22:54									#13
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Well, if the Persians are only 14 away, then Paris might very weell have the great lib by the time we get there:the french have a nicely built up capitol since they are industirous (how come we are industrious, and so are 3 of our neighbors:French, Americans, Persians?) they might be just a few steps behind Xerxes.

I say not to expect many wonders for Apolyton until the middle ages.

	02-08-2002 23:34									#14
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quote: Originally posted by GePap (how come we are industrious, and so are 3 of our neighbors:French, Americans, Persians?)

It's called culturally linked starting locations.

	02-08-2002 23:54									#15
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Not that I want to point out anything unOrthOdox but:

Industrious is a civ TRAIT which has nothing to do with a civ's culture: One knows culture groups by city graphics: we are of the mediterranean group (Roman looking cities), while the Persians are Islamic/Middle Eastern (Minarets), the French are European (mud huts right now) and the Americanss, well, American. Perhaps we have culturally linked start (no idea if this was an option picked), but that doesn't explain this (or why the Romans and Iroq are so far away from their fellow civs, or why Persians have no Islamic neighbors).

	03-08-2002 00:19									#16
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Just pointing out two minor facts:
* Culturally-linked starting locations are off in this game.
* France has moved on to the next era. They now have nice medieval houses.

That's all.

	03-08-2002 01:25									#17
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We MIGHT get Great Library if we conquer Paris. I wouldn't bet on it. And, as others have said, it is IMPOSSIBLE for us to get the Great Library on our own.

	03-08-2002 01:29									#18
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker We MIGHT get Great Library if we conquer Paris. I wouldn't bet on it. And, as others have said, it is IMPOSSIBLE for us to get the Great Library on our own.

I'd bet my bottom dollar the Froggies don't get the Great Library. Persia or Greece will surely beat them, no?

And plus, our attacks may start before anyone finishes it!

	03-08-2002 03:16									#19
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Any chance we could help France get the great library, then (if the build it ourselves idea is out)? Trade them lit as soon as we get it (working hard to get it as fast as we can) or something? I wouldn't be against letting France have the library, and then taking it from them .

-- adaMada

	03-08-2002 03:29									#20
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I really wish there was a way...
I suppose if we had espionage and enough gold we could have sabotaged the production efforts of the competing civs. But that's an industrial age technology and we're still living on trees...

Last edited by Shiber on 03-08-2002 at 03:34

	03-08-2002 05:51									#21
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Uber - I meant that we could capture Paris, and it would have enough shields that we could switch to the Great Library and get it. I also said that this was NOT likely.

	03-08-2002 20:13									#22
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quote: Originally posted by UberKruX great library? not possible.

hi ,

, anything is possible , .....

think positive , ....

but we could always start to build troops , and let them build the wonder , so that our troops can take it

have a nice day

	04-08-2002 00:09									#23
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quote: Originally posted by panag hi , , anything is possible , ..... think positive , .... but we could always start to build troops , and let them build the wonder , so that our troops can take it have a nice day

HEY EVERYBODY! PANAG IS BACK!

been a while buddy

how are you doing?

	04-08-2002 20:10									#24
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quote: Originally posted by UberKruX HEY EVERYBODY! PANAG IS BACK! been a while buddy how are you doing?

hi ,

thanks good , not , all of you behave , because panag is back , with loads of banana , .......you are warned

good , thanks , posting was nearly impossible but reading the post's was nice

Uber , we should go for the great lib , and build troops with the money that comes free , .......

have a nice day

	04-08-2002 20:45									#25
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quote: Originally posted by UberKruX I'd bet my bottom dollar the Froggies don't get the Great Library. Persia or Greece will surely beat them, no?

I'm in favour of taking any city that builds the GL obselete or not.

	04-08-2002 21:00									#26
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quote: Originally posted by OPD I'm in favour of taking any city that builds the GL obselete or not.

hi ,

agreed but we should take it before its obsolete , .....

or even build it ourselves , so we can get more culture and use the money that comes free for a larger army !

have a nice day

	04-08-2002 22:18									#27
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quote: Originally posted by UberKruX I'd bet my bottom dollar the Froggies don't get the Great Library. Persia or Greece will surely beat them, no? And plus, our attacks may start before anyone finishes it!

Persia is going to finish the pyramids in 16 turns or less, that's for sure.