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quote:
Originally posted by nationalist
Paitkis, Texas is already Mexico. So is California. 
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Sorry Calif. is 43% white, 32% hispanic, around 14% oriental and 10% black and 1% other such as America native.
We have our share of rednecks out here too. The central valley is loaded with them.
I came from the central valley. A city call Modesto. In Calif. the liberals are in San Francisco and LA. The rest of Calif. is conservative. Even the elected democrat's reps in those area are conservative.
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Paiktis22; have you ever served in the Greece military?
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Verto
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The U.S. is a second rate nation? I wasn't aware we had people dying in the streets, unless you mean the homeless people who refuse aid? Crime rates may be high, but then again, so is the number of illegal immigrants.
Stop whining about how terrible America is - you don't live here, so where do you get these facts from? Biased websites which hate America.
As for the original topic, who would win in a war between Russia and the U.S., I would have to say that I don't know, and neither do any of you. There are too many variables.
However, I will go with the U.S., even though it is a second rate, crime ridden nation that pales in comparison to Socialist Europe.
At least I've got my guns...
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Kramerman
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UT, Austin - The live music capital of the world
Jun 2002
time: 23:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Verto
The U.S. is a second rate nation? I wasn't aware we had people dying in the streets, unless you mean the homeless people who refuse aid? Crime rates may be high, but then again, so is the number of illegal immigrants.
Stop whining about how terrible America is - you don't live here, so where do you get these facts from? Biased websites which hate America.
As for the original topic, who would win in a war between Russia and the U.S., I would have to say that I don't know, and neither do any of you. There are too many variables.
However, I will go with the U.S., even though it is a second rate, crime ridden nation that pales in comparison to Socialist Europe.
At least I've got my guns... |
Its ok, they werent being completely serious. They were just trying to get back at this guy who had called European countries second rate - which isnt true either. I think we all know here that all the 'true' second rate countries are on those other 3 major continents . (that means excluding Austrailia and Antarctica - everybody knows those are pointless continents J/K)
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Shi Huangdi
Too bad it can't be you, since the days of the Russian power are over and you were humiliated in the Cold War. |
Keep dreaming about this. No matter how hard you trying to bury us, we will survive. We had a lot of periods of temporal weakness in our history, but we always return. One of the British officers said once: “ You- Russkies, like no one else can solve terrible problems and survive after terrible disasters. To our luck, you also, like no one else can create such problems for yourselves.”
quote:
Too bad it can't be you, since the days of the Russian power are over and you were humiliated in the Cold War. Not that war is likely, as under Putin, Russia is fast becoming yet another US ***** state. |
Silly boy. In fact everything is absolutely reverse. Yeltsin was your lackey. This shame is over now. If you didn’t noticed that political situation is changed under Putin and how our president often manipulate his counterparts to make decisions in Russian favor, you are blind.
P.S. Come and get us if you have balls.
-Serb.
(Formerly known as Dragon Slayer.)
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:21
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quote:
ok. just suggesting that a defensive war by Russia would increase war weariness on America - thus ending the war earlier and therefore saving Russian Lives. But just by killing our civilians you would enrage them all the more, and prolong the war and the death of your people. I think it has been clearly illustrated that the US would enevitablely beat Russia in an all out war, but in a defensive war, you, like Veitnam, would have a chance of winning (winning as in not being conquered) - though when we were fighting Veitnam, it wasnt an all out war (no war economy like wwii, no rationing, people still went about their lives), mind you. If you would rather be conquered but 'teach' Americans this lesson of how you wage war (attrocious death rates for many reasons, I assume), thats fine - sick - but fine. This would only result in horrible death rates on both side, plus the American occupation of Russia. By fighting defensively you would save many, many more Russian lives and have a chance of winning. But, whatever. |
Yeah, whatever.
Come and get us if you think that you will be luckier then everyone who attacked us in the past. Conquering Russia? Much better warriors then you are tried to conquer us many times, they failed. And you think that you, YOU who has a half of dozen military conflicts in their history, which even not wars by our standards, will be more lucky then f.e. Hitler?
If you will attack us, will teach you this lesson, a lesson of war vs. Russia. Prepare for fight till last man standing. Are you ready for bloodbath? We are, and proved it many times, during our history. You? I don’t know. You never showed that you are ready during your history.
quote:
Serb,
It appears that you are bitter that the US enjoys its strategic position of being seperated from the Eurasian-African landmass by two large oceans. It is this fact that has kept American CIVILIAN casualties in war so low when compared to other nations, like Russia. But what can be said of military casualties? The US has never practiced machine gunning our own troops if they retreated from battle (the axiam, 'run away to fight another day' comes to mind), and we have a practice of military strategy that minimizes our own troop casualties, unlike the old SU general strategy of throwing troops at an objective until it was taken (I am not saying Russia still practices this, or even has since WWII, merely pointing out the reasons for your high military death counts during WW2). That last tactic meant an almost guarunteed victory but at the obvious cost of lives, unlike American opperations that often risked defeat.
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I already tried to explain differences in our cultures in one of my previous post. WW2 was Great Patriotic war for us, like war with Napoleon. (The war with USA will be the third Patriotic war if it happens of course). So read what typed below carefully.
We declare Patriotic war only in case when we are in deep sh*t. It means that our country in great danger. And it leaves only two choices for every Russian- to fight for your Rodina and to win, or to die for during this fight. In this situation human life cost nothing, only Rodina has value. Why? Because of our mentality formed through ages. We started our history as one country only after almost 300 years of occupation. Before Mongol’s invaded us, we were separated and fought against each other. We paid for our arrogance very high price, when Mongols conquered separated Russian tribes one by one, and brings 300 years of misery, suffering and darkness to our lands. Only when Russians united they defeated Mongols and stopped occupation, only when ALL Russians like one man, start fight for freedom of our country. We received this lesson very well, and since this time no one was able to conquer us, because in times of great danger we UNITE, we form unity with only one goal- to defeat aggressor and protect our country. And it doesn’t matter what price should we paid for our freedom, because Rodina is our highest value, but not lives of individuals.
In your mentality life of individual is highest value. If through its history USA went through only 10% of miseries that Russians went, your mentality was absolutely different. Amount of fingers on two hands is enough to count all American wars. If you show me a period of Russian history longer then 20 years when we don’t have military conflicts I’ll buy you a beer. We are very peaceful people, but we spent last thousand years in military conflicts and wars.
Back to WW2,
You didn’t participated a machine gun fire of your own troops during WW2, (and it wasn’t wide practice for Russians too, only during most critical moments), but you are not Russians. Your country wasn’t in danger, you was in absolutely different situation, your retirements didn’t determinate life and death of your population and you have absolutely different mentality. For you it’s ok to 'run away to fight another day', (not your invention, Europe used this principle too, and was conquered by Hitler pretty fast), for us if you do not fight when our country is in grave danger you are traitor. And traitor is worse then enemy. If we used this -, 'run away to fight another day' principle, then we were conquered by Hitler as all his previous victims.
This is a major difference between us, you prefer to- 'run away to fight another day', while we prefer- “ni ****u nazad, russkie ne zdayutsa” (fight for last man standing).
That’s why you (or anyone else) will never conquer us.
quote:
Russia had 11 million military casualties alone during WWII, and their only enemy was Germany - who suffered 3.5 million and they had multiple enemies on multiple fronts. Do you not think US troops fought bitter battles against Japan, or Germany for that matter? It was brutal amphbious assault, tropical island jungle warefare, rinse, and repeat for our Pacific war. Yet we did not lose even 0.5 million soldiers (though that is sad enough). Does this make us lesser fighters, because we had less military casualties? |
No. You had much lesser military casualties, but harm done by you to enemy is MUCH lesser too. You didn’t fought against Hitler’s major forces. His major forces always were on Russian front. In 1941 Hitler had 75% of its army on Russian front. The nazi’s casualties on Russian front during 1941-1945 are more then 70% of their OVERALL casualties.
If you were fought against his 6 millions army (which he had on Russian front) only during a single year, your casualties were ten times greater then 300 000-400 000.
quote:
Here is a source, in case you want to deny my stats. But I'll assume you'll just make your typical claim that this site is a biased American conspiracy to make all other countries look inferior or something like that |
You read my thoughts. I prefer books then Internet sources. Last book I read about WW2 said that German casualties was about 10 000 000, not 3,5. And Russian casualties were 11 mlns soldiers and 16 mlns civilians. And btw, Germany wasn’t our only enemy. Italy, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Rumania, Finland, Japan etc. were too. You could check how many Italian and Hungarian divisions participated in Stalingrad battle f.e.
quote:
Your 7 millon civilian casualties are tragic, and mostly due to your position on the globe. Because the US was blessed with ours (our isolation), does this make you so bitter as to want to make us feel your pain? I am sorry for you if this be the case, that you wish harm onto civilians just because you want them to feel your pain |
It is not my point. I said that for every Russian you will kill during your aggression, we would kill American. Forget that we will just seat and watch how you are killing us. We will strike back and bring the same misery to you. Eye for the eye. That’s what I mean.
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:21
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quote:
Give me strong logistics, dear Mars, and I will bring fame and victory to your banner! |
Yeah, keep begging Mars for help. The Russia is backyard of our God and He is always on our side, Mars is helpless in Russia. And even if he wasn’t, you forget that he is the Greek God and he wouldn't help to you anyway, because Greece is on our side. Right Paiktis?
Last edited by Serb on 13-08-2002 at 09:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Serb
Why are you asking?
Are you trying to remind once again that you are US Navy veteran? Don't worry, entire Apolyton already know about this. |
Just a question, nothing more. Not every one here serves in the Military, even my son, age 33 did not served. That is OK with me, it was his decision.
You seem to know a lot about the Russian Military for a 25 year old. The Russian military was a big secret to many Russian people for many years.
I'll will give you this, the Kirov was one hell of a ship when she was built, but now they are wearing out just like ships in every Navy, and they have to be repaired or retired and be replace by newer ships.
Every ship that I help build is now retired. Every ship that I help repair/overhaul, only a few are still in service.
A new question, have you ever travel to the US? If not and you get the change someday you should. We have a lot of site to see.
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quote:
Originally posted by Azazel
damn, this thread is so funny. The whole topic is so fictional, and irrelevant, just as it was during the cold war, and you guys still waste your energies discussing this. |
This topic is not fictional. From May 1945 to m? 1990, how many times did the General staff in both the USSR and USA played this game. It was very real. A lot of men and maybe some woman when to their dead because of this little game. On two difference occasion the US and USSR were ready to go to Nuclear War.
You may have heard of the Cuba missile crisis and either the 67 or 73 Israelis war with the Arab.
The Soviet Union was going to put a stop to you guys beating the Arabs, and we (Nixon) told the Soviet to stand down or else. We went to Decon 3 or 2 over that incident.
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Kramerman
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UT, Austin - The live music capital of the world
Jun 2002
time: 23:21
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quote:
This is a major difference between us, you prefer to- 'run away to fight another day', while we prefer- “ni ****u nazad, russkie ne zdayutsa” (fight for last man standing). |
*buries head in hands in frustration*
Dont you see, by running away to fight another day, we were able to inflict more enemy caualties on our enemies then they can to us. By 'fighting to the las man', you would do exactly that - fight until you are all annhyilated. Was is it so hard for you to grasp this? This is the only reason Veitnam was able to fight us off, if they would of fought until the last man in a field of battle, the war would have been over in a few months. Instead they would attack, then fade away into the jungle to fight again later, instead of sticking around for cluster bombs and napalm to be dropped on their head.
As for making the arrogant remark that you are better warriors simply because you country has known more adversity is proposterous. Our soldiers are highly comitted and hard fighters. In this sense our soldiers are probably equal, but as far as morale, unless the Russian military has changed significantly in the last few years since I saw some television program, our troops are vastly superior in that sense. Russian moral in the military at that time was very low, and standards for special forces like the Spetznaz and such were annually sinkling lower and lower in the need to fill their ranks. A testament to a modern American's fighting spirit can be found in the novel (or the movie, though the novel is more accurate) Black Hawk Down, by Mark Bowden. He poured through thousands of hours of radio transcripts and dozens of interviews to retell the story of the Battle, of Mogadishu - a little know firefight in Somalia in 1993. That shoud give insight into the abilities of just a hundred American soldiers. That is if you can find the book, such insiteful (IOW, insightful = Propaganda) material is likely banned in the Sovie...err.. I mean Russia.
Kman
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:21
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Joseph,
no I wasn't in military.
And if I'll ever have a chance I'll visit your country. I also hope that war between our countries will never happen. The World have a lot of other problems today, problems such as terrorism. And it is good that we are an allies today.
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Kramerman
*buries head in hands in frustration*
Dont you see, by running away to fight another day, we were able to inflict more enemy caualties on our enemies then they can to us. By 'fighting to the las man', you would do exactly that - fight until you are all annhyilated. Was is it so hard for you to grasp this? This is the only reason Veitnam was able to fight us off, if they would of fought until the last man in a field of battle, the war would have been over in a few months. Instead they would attack, then fade away into the jungle to fight again later, instead of sticking around for cluster bombs and napalm to be dropped on their head.
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No you describe something different. It's tactic, while I was talking about strategy in general. Hit and run tactic you have described could be a part of "fight for last man standing strategy" too. During WW2 our partisan regiments done a great harm to nazi using this tactic. I was trying to say that during WW2 we had only two choices to win or to die. Sometimes if you will run today, tommorow could never happen, so you just has no right to run away. Many times during WW2 our army was in such situation. Sometimes (very often) we just haven't right to flee.
quote:
As for making the arrogant remark that you are better warriors simply because you country has known more adversity is proposterous. Our soldiers are highly comitted and hard fighters. In this sense our soldiers are probably equal, but as far as morale, unless the Russian military has changed significantly in the last few years since I saw some television program, our troops are vastly superior in that sense. Russian moral in the military at that time was very low, and standards for special forces like the Spetznaz and such were annually sinkling lower and lower in the need to fill their ranks. |
It's funny that you mentioned Spetznaz. I should be one of them when I was 17. I don't know how it happen in States, but in Russia every guy during his last year of education in school must appear before bunch of medics who must decide in which regiments of army this guy could participate. So, when I visit those doctors, I was 17 and I was in damn good shape. I'm 189sm, 82 kg, I'm studied karate since I was 11 and 10km run was a peice of cake for me. They decided that I must join Voiska Specialnogo naznachedia MVD. (Speznaz ministery of internal affairs). It's a damn elite regiment. But, I go to university instead of army and during time of education in university I was free of military service by our laws. Five years I spent in university has a dramatical impact on my health. I abandon my trainings, started to smoke, to drink vodka and all those sleepless nights before exam days were a pretty big stress to. So, when I wake up one morning I had a feeling that smt wrong with me. When I finished the university and appeared before medics again they told me that I have serious heart problems and could forget not only about Spetznaz, but about military service in general. This is my sad story.  Vodka is poison, sigaretes are killing you slowly, forget about those things if you care for your health. Now I drink only beer since long time.
quote:
A testament to a modern American's fighting spirit can be found in the novel (or the movie, though the novel is more accurate) Black Hawk Down, by Mark Bowden. He poured through thousands of hours of radio transcripts and dozens of interviews to retell the story of the Battle, of Mogadishu - a little know firefight in Somalia in 1993. That shoud give insight into the abilities of just a hundred American soldiers. That is if you can find the book, such insiteful (IOW, insightful = Propaganda) material is likely banned in the Sovie...err.. I mean Russia. |
A testment of modern Russian military spirit can be found in two years old chronicals. Such as:
"As the minister of defense Igor Sergeev, arrived in Pskov for bestowing military honors to the perished Motherland defenders, said, "It is a feat, just a feat, when a small division managed to stop a large gang of hits and to create conditions for its destruction". On the specified data, the items defended by 90 paratroopers, were attacked by the grouping in 1700 hits. As a result the corpses of seven hundred hits were found on the battlefield, most of them died attacking 6-th combat company of the 104-th regiment."
86 of 90 were killed during this fight, but they didn't surrender.
Full story:
http://www.rg.ru/english/Archiv/2000/0315/1.htm
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09-08-2002 21:45
You are not the first. Why everyone decides that I should be from Serbia, if my nickname is Serb? It’s just a abbreviate of my real name, a shorter version.
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