05-08-2002 04:27									#31
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A real forum looks much neater, and avoids the "second class" citizen feeling that PBEMers would have in a sub MP forum.

	05-08-2002 04:33									#32
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exactly! man, you're writing what I am too tired to think.

	05-08-2002 05:28									#33
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Oh, I used to juggle the SidGames forums around all the time. Every reorg resulted in a flurry of posting.

	05-08-2002 07:42									#34
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I don't think moving the PBEMs out of the Spanish and SLeague forums is good. I support the reasons above as well as they have just become apart of these forums and taking them away destroys a little bit of the aura that makes SLeague and Spanish Civ2 Site what they are *waxing philosophical*

	05-08-2002 07:59									#35
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Create it if you want, but don't force us to not play in the SL and SF fora and don't move the games.

If people want to play PBEMs let them be free to choose what crowd they want to play with.

	05-08-2002 08:01									#36
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An advantage of a dedicated PBEM forum is that it would help attract new players who are currently unaware that there's such as thing as PBEM Civ as they never visit the Sleague or Spanish boards...

	05-08-2002 09:22									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Case An advantage of a dedicated PBEM forum is that it would help attract new players who are currently unaware that there's such as thing as PBEM Civ as they never visit the Sleague or Spanish boards...

A disadvantage of a dedicated PBEM forum is that it would help attract new players from the civ2 MP forum who are currently unaware that there's such a thing as PBEM Civ as they never visit the Sleague or Spanish boards...

All said and done I don't really think its worth the bother. A half dozen or so PBEM threads don't take up that much space to warrant moving them somewhere else. It probably makes it easier for the PBEMers too - having a page full of PBEM threads would only make it more difficult to distinguish between them. Trying to navigate through the Smac PBEM section of the old Acol boards was a nightmare...

	05-08-2002 11:28									#38
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quote: Originally posted by ravagon A disadvantage of a dedicated PBEM forum is that it would help attract new players from the civ2 MP forum who are currently unaware that there's such a thing as PBEM Civ as they never visit the Sleague or Spanish boards...

Good point [especially when it comes to the guy who's soon to move to a house terrifingly near where I live]

	05-08-2002 12:34									#39
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2 reasons to keep the pbems where they are:

1) pbems are often used to test new scenarii

2) all the pbems are played on scenarii

And a 3rd, rather subjective, one: I'm used to check them where they are now...

	05-08-2002 14:27									#40
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one would think that
people who play ip games != people who play pbem

	05-08-2002 19:24									#41
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I play a PBEM or two but my vote is:
Move 'em to their own forum!
The threads clutter the SLeague forum. We wont see this place become a ghost town - it was active before PBEM caught on. If your worried about losing traffic in the SLeague forum, invite the people you meet in the new PBEM forum to check us out. I guess it doesn't make that much difference to me, but my vote stands.

	05-08-2002 20:03									#42
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG one would think that people who play ip games != people who play pbem

You might think that Mark, but it's not the case at all.

Look at the names here and the SF and compare them to the MP forum.

Not many the same, in fact, outside of myself, none I can think of.

The two types of gaming are seperate and distinct, ask Ming if you don't believe me.

	05-08-2002 21:45									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Jacobite1688 We wont see this place become a ghost town - it was active before PBEM caught on.

Doing a rough analysis of the active threads, the vast majority of them are PBEM. I'm not so sure about this place not becoming a ghost town. Even so, I agree the SL forum is cluttered and would prefer a separate PBEM forum.

	05-08-2002 21:58									#44
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quote: The two types of gaming are seperate and distinct

that's what i said

i used != not =

	05-08-2002 21:59									#45
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quote: Originally posted by techumseh I'd be interested in your point of view, Jesus. The Spanish site is sort of parallel to SL, isn't it? Some scenario stuff and some PBEM. Will you keep both together?

If I can, yes, absolutely. Both forums are similar but the SF has a broader scope. We also talk Civ3 for instance, and organize MP games in addition to pbems.

The major problem that I see here is that some SL regulars would like the pbems removed. Not a single SF regular has requested that. Therefore this is not our war. While I admit that the guys who want the pbems out of the SL may have a point, I just do not understand why Mark's rule has to be applied to a forum which is pretty damn happy with the current state of things.

Some people in addition miss the fact that cheating in pbems is very easy. That's why many of us don't play with *anybody*. We play with people we know and trust. The people we know and trust are here, not in the MP forum.

I think ElAwr's solution is the best one. Create the MP subforum if you wish, but let the players decide whom to play and where to play.

(edit: spelling)

	06-08-2002 02:54									#46
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Right...
I still think the SL should assimilate Civ2-Creation and be moved into the Civ2 category.
On one hand, I like people playing scenarios. On the other, I don't want ten threads about Imperialism and 1830 to the detriment of others.
Therefore, I propose the following rule:
No more than one active game of the same scenario is allowed in the SL forum. Dig through the archives and find something fresh to enjoy. If you want to play something that's being played, do so in the PBEM forum.

	06-08-2002 03:24									#47
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Gaah! What have I started ... But well, we might as well get this over with. I second St. Leo's suggestion.

A separate section for the hosted sites is nice and all, but both forums are mostly (if not entirely) about Civ2, so that's where they fit best. This should also make them a little less obscure to the newer users among us.

And I seriously doubt this will mean a lot of heretics and no-good multiplayers are going to spoil the atmosphere here... It's not THAT busy anymore around Civ2.

Besides, I don't see the Clash forum under the "Hosted Sites" heading, so insisting on keeping the hosted site forums apart wouldn't be a very compelling argument.

	06-08-2002 03:40									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Jay Bee The major problem that I see here is that some SL regulars would like the pbems removed. Not a single SF regular has requested that. Therefore this is not our war. While I admit that the guys who want the pbems out of the SL may have a point, I just do not understand why Mark's rule has to be applied to a forum which is pretty damn happy with the current state of things.

Well, I don't quite think this can be called a "war"... I don't think anyone before me mentioned any of this. If I had kept my mouth shut, no-one might have said a word... I can survive just fine if it stays the way it is now, I was just curious.

quote: Some people in addition miss the fact that cheating in pbems is very easy. That's why many of us don't play with *anybody*. We play with people we know and trust. The people we know and trust are here, not in the MP forum.

Well, judging people right off the bat isn't very gentlemanly ... I'd say MP'ers would be easier to trust than (SL) newbies, and I don't see them being rejected. I think this is a very isolationistic and elitist view.

quote: I think ElAwr's solution is the best one. Create the MP subforum if you wish, but let the players decide whom to play and where to play.

Since most PBEM'ers here have, AFAIK, stated they don't see the point, I don't see how this is going to help. This will only make it even more ambiguous, with two forums for the same thing.

	06-08-2002 04:50									#49
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I really don't think we need any rules about how many threads of a certain type can be allowed at any one time. It sounds difficult to enforce, and who wants to expend the energy anyway?

I'm partly persuaded by JayBee's argument. There may be some synergy between scenario creation and playing them in PBEM format. What has disappointed me in the last few months is the evident lack of interest on the part of a number of forum participants in playing and discussing new scenarios. Questions often go unanswered, new offerings go without being commented on. Perhaps the real question is, "How can we restore the sense of this being a community?"

	06-08-2002 12:02									#50
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I also don't think we should get rid of the pbem games. I originally came here because I wanted to play pbems and this is where I found them first. In the course of time coming here and checking out the scenario discussions going on here reawakened my own interest in scenario creation (though its true I'd been fiddling around with scens long before I was even aware of any civ2 online community).

If we lose the pbems we may lose more people like me (no smart arse comments here please ) who came to pbem and later became scenario designers and active participants in the SLeague community. I also think a rule about the number of pbems is rather pointless and more effort than its worth.

Besides which, I still think that moving off the pbems will substantially reduce the activity on this site. Don't do it SLeague; you have so much to live for...

	06-08-2002 14:51									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Mercator Well, judging people right off the bat isn't very gentlemanly ... I'd say MP'ers would be easier to trust than (SL) newbies, and I don't see them being rejected. I think this is a very isolationistic and elitist view.

You missed the point. Let's try again: people cheat and that spoils the game. If you play with friends, that does not happen. People you do not know sometimes 'forget' to play their turns promptly, and that spoils the game.
That is not elitist or isolationistic, that is the raw facts.

Btw Merc, when was the last time you saw me playing pbems in the SL forum? I have been referring all the time to the SF forum. I seldom visit the SL forum lately. I was dragged into this discussion by the boss.

Tech, as I said before, you guys may have a point... regarding the SL forum. As a former SL regular I actually agree with you. That's why I posted what I posted in my first message on this thread. However, this is a SL concern, there is no reason to extend it to other forums.

	06-08-2002 16:34									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Mercator If I had kept my mouth shut, no-one might have said a word...

Please explain this. Was a PBEM forum going to be created even if you hadn't suggested it?

What a mess this is.
It started off with an innocent suggestion.
The Spanish forum got dragged into it against their will.
There is no consensus in SL about what to do.

Let's leave things the way they are.

	06-08-2002 18:51									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Jay Bee You missed the point. Let's try again: people cheat and that spoils the game. If you play with friends, that does not happen. People you do not know sometimes 'forget' to play their turns promptly, and that spoils the game. That is not elitist or isolationistic, that is the raw facts.

I understand that... But how do you react if some Civ2 newbie stumbles upon this site, visits the SL or SF forum, and asks to join a pbem game (or me, for that matter)? Do you ask him to leave and wait a little, so we have a chance to get to know him first? I don't think so, AFAIK new members have been heartily welcomed around here... What is it then that would make an experienced MP player, who will certainly have enough morals to not cheat, at least in MP, be rejected... Well, to some extent anyway, if they come over here it wouldn't be a problem right, whereas you think it might be, when a separate pbem forum is created, where a new "community" will have to be built.
Am I right, or am completely missing the point again?

quote: Btw Merc, when was the last time you saw me playing pbems in the SL forum? I have been referring all the time to the SF forum. I seldom visit the SL forum lately. I was dragged into this discussion by the boss.

Ahem... I don't visit the pbem threads, so I wouldn't know.

quote: Please explain this. Was a PBEM forum going to be created even if you hadn't suggested it?

Probably (almost certainly) not.

quote: What a mess this is. It started off with an innocent suggestion. The Spanish forum got dragged into it against their will.

Yes... I'm not quite sure how that happened.

quote: There is no consensus in SL about what to do. Let's leave things the way they are.

*sigh* I'm inclined to think so too... (maybe just move to the Civ2 section? OK, OK, maybe not... )

	07-08-2002 02:44									#54
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* St Leo waves hands
These are not the forums that you are looking for, Markos.
They may pass.

	07-08-2002 08:58									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Mercator I understand that... But how do you react if some Civ2 newbie stumbles upon this site, visits the SL or SF forum, and asks to join a pbem game (or me, for that matter)? Do you ask him to leave and wait a little, so we have a chance to get to know him first? I don't think so, AFAIK new members have been heartily welcomed around here... What is it then that would make an experienced MP player, who will certainly have enough morals to not cheat, at least in MP, be rejected...

This happens anyway though, right? Newcomers join in PBEM's, generally one or two at a time, are told the rules etc, and play away.
There aren't exactly any barriers to prevent those evil evil MPers (and I'm not touching the bit about experienced MP players, morals and not cheating ) from posting here and joining in PBEM's anyway, aside from the lack of advertising.
The bottom line though, if there is a PBEM forum created in Civ2 somewhere - Let those who want MP players to join in a particular PBEM post/play it in the PBEM forum where they might see it. It might even reduce the number currently in the Sleague/Spanish forums enough to placate the rabid anti-PBEMers.
Just don't enforce a mandatory "move all Sleague/Spanish PBEM's to the new PBEM section" order.

[As an aside though - if the verbal barrage Deity receives for moving slowly is any indication, there won't be many MPers who take it up anyway. ]

	07-08-2002 10:12									#57
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quote: Originally posted by ravagon There aren't exactly any barriers to prevent those evil evil MPers (and I'm not touching the bit about experienced MP players, morals and not cheating ) from posting here and joining in PBEM's anyway, aside from the lack of advertising.

...and their fear of posting on an on-topic board

Re cheating: Jay Bee may have a point here. I've noticed that cheating has become more rampant on the CFC boards since a new PBEM sub-forum was created.
On the other hand, heaps of totally reliable new players have also joined the games...

Personally, I think that the benefits of attracting new players outweigh the risk of attracting more cheaters. The higher average age/sanity levels on Apolyton compared to CFC should also keep the number of cheating kids/lunatics down

	07-08-2002 16:05									#58
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quote: If you play with friends, that does not happen.

and what exactly would force you from arranging a game with your friends in the separate pbem forum?

	07-08-2002 16:36									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Mercator Yes... I'm not quite sure how that happened.

Markos is driving the bus now.

	09-08-2002 04:06									#60
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Gothmog, check your PM's.