13-08-2002 19:33									#31
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quote: If I recall correctly, midieval European nobles prolly couldn't care less if barbaric heathen 'nobles' were killed or slaughtered.

There's an exception for people who don't share your religion, of course. If you don't tolerate their religion, you can do whatever you want with them during wars. However, we only have one religion in the free version CB. And war with heathens that you don't tolerate pretty much implies their nobility isn't safe, so there's no point for another option.

quote: So why can't the 100 years war be considered a 'total' war in CB terms?

The only people who slaughtered nobles/clergy in the 100 Years War were French peasant and burgher rebels, and the English certainly had no love for them.

I think the varying support for rapine can simulate any "total war" that you wage, where only peasants and burghers are up for grabs.

	15-08-2002 09:52									#32
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Random comment from reading a random bit in the middle of the thread:

An annexation of a territory with a casus belli gives a reduction in x honor and temporary decrease in happiness for nobles by y.

Now I agree that the peasants shouldn't care, but why should the nobles be unhappy? Specifically, now that you've expanded your domain, then either
A) There are more nobles, and the recent ones are your appointees in the conquered land, who are very grateful & loyal, making nobles on the whole happier.
B) Some of the same batch of nobles have been granted extra fiefs for more income, and are similarly grateful and owe you a debt.

While certainly not honorable, I don't see why an annexation would make your own citizens unhappy. I mean, just remember how happy everybody was back in the 50's, when we finally formally annexed Canada. Especially the elites, like Baron Kennedy.

	15-08-2002 10:24									#33
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The idea is that you're usurping the property rights of whomever you're taking territory from. And if you take property from a prince, why should your nobles expect you to respect their property rights?

quote: A) There are more nobles, and the recent ones are your appointees in the conquered land, who are very grateful & loyal, making nobles on the whole happier.

I don't follow you...

Because you grant the same priviledges to the conquered nobles as you do to the ones you had before conquest, average noble happiness increases?

quote: B) Some of the same batch of nobles have been granted extra fiefs for more income, and are similarly grateful and owe you a debt.

Well, you can choose to grant your nobles land from your demense in the conquered province if you want to increase their happiness...

	17-08-2002 10:16									#34
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The idea is that you're usurping the property rights of whomever you're taking territory from.

Well, I don't know how you're using the word "annex" (again, skimmed the thread) but presumably this usurpation would come as a part of a war. Which your nobles have helped fund and run. So they're behind taking down the property rights of the evil French, right?

Now, if you mean "threaten a random independent prince into submission," then assuming you don't replace the government, perhaps you have a point. Even still, nobles can be weak and still be happy, right? Look at Japanese nobles late in their history. They were forced to stay at court half the time (where they could have an eye kept on them) and maintain standards of court living so extravegent that they were virtually penniless outside of that. Still, no revolt there.

And if you take property from a prince, why should your nobles expect you to respect their property rights?

'cause this prince was not on the right side of the fence, of course. I'd make it very clear that there are two types of people in this world: those with me, and those against me. If you're with me, I'll respect your proprety rights and spread the bounty around when times are good. If you're against me, good luck.

That said, if Candle' bre was going to be a more extensive game than it was, it actually would be nice to have a "disrespect your own nobles' property rights" option, where you capriciously rearrange where nobles have power and even remove a noble completely from power occasionally, rotating in your own toadies. Assuming they don't instantly revolt, ideally you'll eventually end up with an enraged and yet powerless set of nobles, after which you execute all of the old guard and declare all your territories to be under direct royal control (and then if I'm in my crusader mood instead of my evil mood, I would being the transition to democracy at lower levels, being that I'm not actually from this time period and have modern values). Stupid nobles, I hate 'em.

Because you grant the same priviledges to the conquered nobles as you do to the ones you had before conquest, average noble happiness increases?

No, conquered nobles become "government servants" where they can do useful government work like tilling the government fields under close watch by government soldiers. I'm talking about the batch of nobles you put in to rule the conquered area- they weren't nobles before, and presumably you've hand-picked them, so they should be grateful to you and be quite loyal in whatever version of the Senate/Diet exists in your country. And what does your standard noble from before care about this conquest or his new compatriots? So some nobles don't care, and others like you more.

	17-08-2002 17:14									#35
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Nahhh....not naysaying anything just yet....just watching, reading, and thinking....

-=Vel=-

	27-08-2002 01:28									#36
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quote: Well, I don't know how you're using the word "annex" (again, skimmed the thread) but presumably this usurpation would come as a part of a war. Which your nobles have helped fund and run. So they're behind taking down the property rights of the evil French, right?

Since you seem to have brought up the 100 Years War, the English nobles were principally involved in rapine. It took strong, plutocratic Kings, like Henry V to try to conquer France.

quote: 'cause this prince was not on the right side of the fence, of course. I'd make it very clear that there are two types of people in this world: those with me, and those against me.

And the any of the nobles are up the creek if the prince decides that they are against him. Princes had very strict limits on the amount of property they could take.

If you rented an apartment from me, wouldn't you get a little worried if I siezed everything in your neighbor's apartment, or forcefully siezed my chief competitor's apartment complex?

quote: That said, if Candle' bre was going to be a more extensive game than it was, it actually would be nice to have a "disrespect your own nobles' property rights" option, where you capriciously rearrange where nobles have power and even remove a noble completely from power occasionally, rotating in your own toadies.

That's exactly what's being planned. You can grant or take away grants of land to various social groups, including the nobility. However, you can't remove all nobles; your demense in each province must be a maximum size.

quote: No, conquered nobles become "government servants" where they can do useful government work like tilling the government fields under close watch by government soldiers.

The nobles would be the primary government soldiers...

quote: I'm talking about the batch of nobles you put in to rule the conquered area- they weren't nobles before, and presumably you've hand-picked them, so they should be grateful to you and be quite loyal

Like I said, you can grant nobles land if you want a territory's nobles to be more stable.

quote: And what does your standard noble from before care about this conquest or his new compatriots?

They'd be quite enraged, I imagine, unless the replacement is justified (for example, the nobles revolt).