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JMarks
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formerly known as the artist
Mar 2000
time: 05:21
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Espionage also came up during yesterday's chat. But I was dissatisfied with the current model, and so, after minutes of research, came up with an alternative I hope you guys will look over before throughing in the garbage.  Hope you like.
Espionage Model
John Shrader based on Sun Tzu
Espionage is conducted via people. Various types of espionage require various types of people. Usually these people require gold to hire and to upkeep. There are, therefore, two broad types of spies in game: one-time use spies (OTU) and hired spies.
One-time use spies are purchased where they are employed at (or at an espionage screen if we have one). The cost and success rates depends on the type of spy employed and his mission.
Hired spies are represented by a unit, and require an initial purchase and an upkeep. To keep their loyalty you may give them gifts for very successful missions or increase their salary. You have control over where they go until you assign them a mission. Then they do their job. You gain control over them again when/if they come back.
There are five individual types of spies. They are:
Local Spies: (OTU) Common (non-government/army) people hired for their services
Main purpose: Guide, basic prov info, basic army info
Internal Spies: (OTU or hired) People employed from the enemy's government/military.
Main purpose: Detailed info (depends on type hired), snitch, revolt, (mabey assasination)
Expendable Spies: (OTU) Unwitting dupes who are hired for a one-way mission.
Main purpose: Misinformation, diversion, (mabey suicide assasination/demolition)
Living Spies: (hired) These are the 'real' spies. Professionals who know their business.
Main purpose: Information at all levels, snitch, diversion, (mabey assasinations/demolition)
Doule Agent: (hired) These are enemy spies woed to your side by gold and large rewards.
Main purpose: Information, Disinformation, snitch, (mabey assasination/demolition)
Special: You have no real control over their movements, just an agreement. When they return to their side, they gather info for you and return on their 'proper' mission.
There are various types of missions:
Guide: (Local) Guides are locals who know the land. Such info is of great value to an invading army. Gain bonus movement and attack for armies with accompianing guide. (guides only know their own prov, can't be used outside of their home province) Guides stay on untill you (a.leave the province, (b.vanquish your foe, (c.thinks the risk is too great and deserts.
Terrain Info: (local) Learn good places to set up camp or defenses, or good places to attack enemy camps. added defense for camps in area, or added attack against enemy camps and defensive areas. Bonuses vary depending on how good the info is (roll of the dice).
Troop Info: (Local, Internal (military), Living, Double) Learn where and how many troops are where in a province. Details and accuracy depends on spy type and experience.
Province Info: (Local, Internal (gov), Living, Double) Learn enemy province stats including: Pop, content, improvements, wonders, etc, etc. Details and accuracy depends on spy type and experience.
Government Info: (Internal (high gov), Living, Double) Learn enemy government info including science, budget, honor, influence, etc, etc. Details and accuracy depends on spy type and experience.
Snitch: (Internal, Living, Double) Snitches turn over enemy operators, or reveals secrets crucial to victory. Snitch out other spies and possibly gain the information they carry. Internal spies can snitch out weaknesses in fortresses that will make them fall easily. (catagory should probably be divided into two to distinguish them)
Revolt: (Internal) Internal Spies, especially those of high standing, can cause a revolt and join your side. A military officer brings all units under his command (can be done DURING battle), and a provincial governor can cause the people to revolt and overthrough their lords.
Missinformation: (expendable, double) Give a spy bad information and send him on his merry way. He is supposed to be caught (and will if expendable agent), and he gives the bad information. Bad info can be randomly made (resonably hopefully), or you can make it up yourself. Best used by an expendable agent, as it may uncover a double agent.
Diversion: (expendable, living) Have a big deal going down? Want to increase its success probability? Send a few diversions, that might do the trick. Increases success rate and survival rate. Best used by expendable, they're cheaper. 
Assasination: (internal, expendable, living, double) This is just plain dirty work, and could damage your honor. You hire an assasine trained in the dark arts, or a close friend/loved one to perform this dasterdly deed. All, save internal, are special sub-divisions of the normal versions of spies. Assasines cannot do normal spy work, and vice-versa. (or assasines CAN do normal work, but regs can't do assasinations) Internals aren't very successful (but can be paid off with a position in your government if successful), expendables one time only mercanaries. Living and double agents of the dark arts can continue to work for you, though for more money than a regular spy. Double agents who do so will become your living spies if found out, and not caught.
Demolition: (expendable, living, double) Same as above, but for improvements.
If you suspect a spy is giving away your information, or something else pretty bad, you can simply have him executed. No penalties are given for doing so, after all they are spies, and no one will really hear about it anyway. Even if other spies know about it, they knew the risk before the incedent.
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JMarks
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formerly known as the artist
Mar 2000
time: 05:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Ramo
Remember those anachronistic things I was talking about...
Nothing close to this has ever happened in republican gov't's (even those not elected by Nobles) during this time period, AFAIK.
Doing something like that would be virtual suicide for any prince; taking a person's land through a non-noble revolt and adding to your own was thing that simply was not done. |
Yeah, yeah, you're right. THAT part of the option prolly shouldn't be added. I still like the bribing of the nobles as part of the spy work though.
quote:
Originally posted by BigRich
Maybe I'm being dense, but I'm not totally clear how you envisage your model being played out in the game. Will it be a Civ2 style 'move your unit into a province and choose a mission' type of implementation, or more of an abstracted MOO2 style 'assign a certain number of spies to an enemy province via a separate screen' sort of thing? |
Well, it can be kinda'v both. Its kinda like civ2 in that you can have movable units (for certain types of spies) that you move around in the diplo-spy phase (or was it military-espionage phase?). But as such they don't actually carry out their mission untill after the turn, I think. Also, depending on mission, etc, it can take a few turns. This allows for retraction of various deeds if you change your mind. Plus, if we want, you can have more than one spy doing the same mission, thus increasing its chances of probability.
Of course the OTU spies will need a bit better working on. I would invision it as you right clicking on the enemy province and clicking hire this guy or that guy. You might need to send a regular spy in to find these people, (might be an extra mission) but thats how I initially see it. Of course, I think conditions must be right for being able to hire these people. Which means mabey getting a loyalty (and mabey influence) rating for the province and mabey the nobles (not individual but group loyalty). If its too high, you can't hire these guys, or it'll cost an outrageous fortune. The lower the loyalty, the less it'll cost. You get the idea.
Oooh, here's another mission idea:
Frame: (double) Pay your double agent to do a dasterdly deed and frame it on his original boss. That faction then looses honor ratings, unless the double spy is caught in framing (or squeels if caught), in which case YOU loose honor points.
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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:21
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Thoughts:
Espionage ought not be a "standalone" aspect of the game, but rather, one that is woven into the fabric of other elements. Although espionage as a research branch *is* its own unique branch, this is more reflective of the somewhat specialized nature of the skills and infrastructure necessary to support espionage activities, however....when it comes to spies themselves....they are everyone and no one....they would not be good spies if it were otherwise. So...rather than having a separate espi model per se, I think we should explore the possibilities of expanding the role of each faction's "Shadow Warriors" wrt the other existing models.
Using JMarks' basic ideas as a framework, here's how I see that working:
1 - Scout/Guide: New combat unit, trained at a Thieves' Guild in the same way that troops are trained in barracks. Both units have attack and defense values in their own right, with scouts providing an offensive bonus to all units stacking with them (better understanding of the lay of the land), and Guides providing a defensive bonus to all units stacking with them. Possibly, we could make guides have to remain in their own province (local boys who have a deep understanding of the terrain in the province they were trained in).
2 - Plant spy: Give the citizen template a "spy y/n/faction" attribute. Chances of turning a rival faction's citizen into a spy are determined by your espi tech level, amount of gold spent on the attempt, unhappiness of the citizen you approach, and that citizen's social class. Planted spies give you information relevant to what they're doing (if working the land in a given province, then you know how much food is being produced there, if working in a library, then you know how much research is being generated there, and in what fields, etc). If a citizen spy is later drafted into the military, then the fog of war would be lifted for you in the province that the spy is in. If the spy gets promoted to general/war captain, you may exercise a defection option to bring him into your fold, or a rebellion option, to have him sway some portion of the troops he's currently got under his command, in an attempt to take control of the province he's in. Victory sees the province come under your faction's control.
Stuff like that.
-=Vel=-
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JMarks
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formerly known as the artist
Mar 2000
time: 05:21
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quote:
Espionage ought not be a "standalone" aspect of the game, but rather, one that is woven into the fabric of other elements. |
Well, then it shouldn't get its own phase.  But seriously, if thats what you're worried about, just see how they work. Notice your two examples. All they are are my local and internal spy models. The only difference is I retain the name spy, even though that may not be the best name.
Also, the guide should not come from your thieves guilds at all, but a peasant from the local province who knows the land. The only real difference between local and internal 'spies' is class. Locals are the paesantry, and low-lifes, while internals are of the nobility and govenment positions.
What you wrote on the internal spy is very much how I see them working. They ARE an integral part of other models, though you have definatly made it more clear.
Back to the guides. That may be ok if you can hire guides at your thieve's guilds later on in the tech tree. Call them 'mountain men' or something and have them as a unit unseen by anyone but you. The longer they stay in an enemy province before an attack, the better they know the land, and the better bonuses you get.
But then they would be classified under the 'living spy' also known as your standard spy unit. I'm going to divide that one up just a bit for various types, or for various abilities.
But back to what you were saying, half of what I'm proposing IS or is supposed to be integrated into other models, namely the OTU spies. Mabey that name is misleading, I'll have to do some more work on it. I still want the units though for some of this (namely the hired spies). If you want to combine them into other aspects, then merge the espionage/diplomatic phase with another one.
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JMarks
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formerly known as the artist
Mar 2000
time: 05:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Velociryx
I used those two examples specifically to show ya that I was giving serious thought to your ideas!
No worries, in the end, everything should and will be an integrated whole...no single element of the game will truly stand alone. Keep in mind that the "phases" you were referring to are really only applicable to the board game version....in the computer version, everything is much more amorphous...no real phases, per se.
I guess the meat of what I'm getting at is there are certain espi functions that are best handled on the (eventual diplomacy) interface screen, and certain others that it makes more sense to place elsewhere.
Just wanted to drop a note or three here to let you know that as I had time throughout the ol' work day, I was pondering these ideas....
-=Vel=- |
Yeah, I know Some of what I say could easily go into the diplomatic screen and stuff, but still I'll plug away here. Some of this stuff could be in the diplomacy area (internal spies) but I would still consider them to be in the spy department, at least when considering Sun Tzu. I'd just like to consider all the options and then trim down from there. So, here is the first part of version 1.1 of my espionage model. So far I've only expanded the information on the spies themselves, not the missions which I shall do later.
Espionage Model ver.1.1
John Shrader based on Sun Tzu
Espionage is conducted via people. Various types of espionage require various types of people. Usually these people require gold to hire and to upkeep. There are, therefore, two broad types of spies in game: Stationary and mobile spies.
Stationary Spies: Stationary Spies are purchased at the location where they are used. Depending on the nature of their mission, they may require upkeep to continue what you hired them to do. They are represented by an icon on the screen for easy access. (or someother way to recognise you have such spies in the area)
Mobile Spies: Mobile Spies are usually purchased at a thieve's guild or other spy building. They are represented by a unit that you can move during the espionage/diplomacy phase. Once moved into the location you wish them to perform their mission, you may click on them to bring up a menu of options, hit a key to send him on his mission. They will then take as many turns as it requires them to do their mission, which may include tracking across various provinces on their own. Mobile Spies require an initial hiring fee and an upkeep fee. Some missions require extra gold to accomplish for equipment, bribing, etc. Note: You can move all mobile spies yourself except the double agents.
There are five individual types of spies. They are:
Local Spies: (stationary) Common (non-government/army) people hired for their services. (Level 0 +)
When people are fed up with their government, or when handed a subtantial wad of cash, they often are willing to give their services to another. While most will only have very scketchy information about the government and troop movements of an area, they are reliable sources for info on farming, city life, and of course the terrain itself. Most rural people know their provinces like the back of their hand, so employ them well in that regard.
How to hire: If loyalty of a province is extremely low, people will often offer to guide you as you march your troops in, for free if they're really desperate. Otherwise you'll have to send a spy in before hand to find people willing to guide you, or do any other info gathering.
Possible Missions: Guide, rough terain info, rough prov info, rough army info, detailed farming info.
Internal Spies: (stationary {mobile if officer in actual army}) People employed from the enemy's government/military. (Level 2+)
Fed by greed for money or power, some officials will do anything to advance themselves, even turn against their leige. These people are promising targets who can do much damage to another contender for the crown. Employ the enemy's disloyal officials while keeping your own faithful to a fault!
How to hire: Send in a spy to governmental institutions/military formations to try to persuade them to join your cause.
Possible Missions: Detailed prov info, detailed military info, disrupt defenses, incite revolt, switch allegiance, disrupt research.
Expendable Spies: (Mobile) Unwitting dupes who are hired for a one-way mission. (Level 2+)
Clumsy, common people often want to be spies too. The life seems glamerous and the pay is pretty good. But you can still use them to your own purpose. Pretend to trust them and rely on them and send them off with contaminated information to mislead the enemy, or use them as diversions while your real spies do their dirty work. If you send these guys too often, the enemy might start catching on.
How to hire: Purchase at theive's guild
Possible Missions: Misinformation, diversion
Living Spies: (Mobile) These are the 'real' spies. Professionals who know their business. (Level 1+)
Masters of the shadows, wisperers of words, these men and women are your all purpose spy. Spy techs increase their deadly capabilities exponentially. They are experts at getting info and bribing unfaithful enemies to your side. Hard to catch, these slippery figures know their business well. But they become expensive to train at higher levels.
How to hire: Purchase at theive's guild.
Possible Missions: Spy, counter spy, Hire local spy, hire internal spy, recon (guide), provincial info, military info, hire double agent, assasination, demolition.
Doule Agent: (Mobile) These are enemy spies woed to your side by gold and large rewards.
Beware the double-crosser! But also befriend him, he can be of great value to you. However, if he is discovered, he will most likely be killed, or, if he escapes, will become one of your regular spies.
How to hire: If you discover a spy durring a counter-spy mission, you have two choices, you can try to kill him or you can try to bribe him. If you successfully bribe him, he will accept orders from you.
Possible Missions: Spy, counter-spy, hire local spy, hire internal spy, provincial info, military info, assasination, demolition.
Note: Untill he is caught, a double agent is moved from province to province by the enemy. Thus, you can only make him do missions in areas he is at.
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JMarks
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formerly known as the artist
Mar 2000
time: 05:21
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Mission information:
Spy: (Living, Double - Level 1 - free)
This is the most basic mission of the spy. Spies gather basic information about an enemby province by just standing there. No risk is incurred upon the spy for doing the mission, and if caught by a counter-spy, you loose no honor.
Guide: (Local - Level 0 - low-high fee)
Guides are locals who know the land. Such info is of great value to an invading army. Gain bonus movement and attack for armies with accompianing guide. Sometimes, in provinces that have low loyalty ratings, locals will directly offer their services to an invading army. Otherwise these local spies will have to be sought out by a regular spy or double agent. Guide must remain with army in province for bonus to be effective. For size of bonus, roll d6, 1=+1 bonus, 6=+6 bonus
Recon guide) (Living, Double - Level 4 - free)
At higher levels of ablity and survival, a spy can scout out enemy terrean to great effect. Thus, your own spy can act like a local guide. However, to do this the spy must be in the province for at least 5 turns. He automaticly scouts the terrean with his other spy work. The longer he recontours the province, the better the bonus he gives your invading army. (#turns/5=bonus attack no larger than 5 bonus)When your army invades, he automaticly joins your troops. As long as he is in the army and survives, he gives them their bonus in that province.
Troop Info: (Local, Internal (military), Living, Double - Level 1 - minimal-medium)
Learn where and how many troops, their type, are where in a province. Of course details and accuracy depend on the spy hired for the task. Locals are dirt cheap, but only have general ideas of troop movement, while officials are in the know but their info comes at a premium. Your spy can sneak around and have a look, but at a risk to his person.
Province Info: (Local, Internal (gov), Living, Double - Level 1 - minimal-medium)
Learn enemy province stats including: Pop, economic, and other details. Of course details and accuracy depend on the spy hired for the task. Locals are dirt cheap, but only have general ideas of the province's well being, while officials are in the know but their info comes at a premium. Your spy can sneak around and have a look, but at a risk to his person.
Government Info: (Internal (high gov), Living, Double - Level 2 - medium-high)
Learn enemy government info including science, budget, honor, influence, etc, etc. Officials are in the know but their info comes at a premium. Your spy can sneak around and have a look, but at a risk to his person.
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JMarks
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formerly known as the artist
Mar 2000
time: 05:21
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good idea ravag, will think on that, sounds great. Don't know how it'd work either, either now, or in a fuller combat engine. But still, great idea.  Just as long as the other side could employ counter spies as their own special forces, then you might have two battles going on at once, the real battle, and the battle behind, between, and around the lines. Might be interesting.
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JMarks
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formerly known as the artist
Mar 2000
time: 05:21
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Counterspy: (Living, Double - level 2 - free)
This is just like spying, only the spy does it in your own territory. His mission is to rat out other spies. When in your territory, your spies will automaticly counterspy.
Revolt: (Internal - Level 4 - high, astronomical)
Internal Spies, especially those of high standing, can cause a revolt and join your side. A military officer brings all units under his command (can be done DURING battle), and a provincial governor can cause the people to revolt and overthrough their lords.
Special Ops: (Living - Level 5 - ??)
At level 5 your spy unit can accompany your army as a special ops. There he can disrupt enemy lines, distract the archers, attempt to assasinate a leader, etc.
Diversion: (expendable, living - level 3 - small, medium) Have a big deal going down? Want to increase its success probability? Send a few diversions, that might do the trick. Increases success rate and survival rate. Best used by expendable, they're cheaper.
Assasination: (internal, expendable, living, double - level 5 - high) This is just plain dirty work, and could damage your honor. You hire an assasine trained in the dark arts, or a close friend/loved one to perform this dasterdly deed. All, save internal, are special sub-divisions of the normal versions of spies. Assasines cannot do normal spy work, and vice-versa. (or assasines CAN do normal work, but regs can't do assasinations) Internals aren't very successful (but can be paid off with a position in your government if successful), expendables one time only mercanaries. Living and double agents of the dark arts can continue to work for you, though for more money than a regular spy. Double agents who do so will become your living spies if found out, and not caught.
Demolition: (expendable, living, double - level 5 - high) Same as above, but for improvements.
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JMarks
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formerly known as the artist
Mar 2000
time: 05:21
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Alright, by popular demand of the little guys in my head, I'm putting together a diplo-model to go with my espio-model. So far I have the official treaties and 'states of being' roughed out. See if ya guys like!
Diplomacy Model
John Shrader
Diplomacy is all about relations between two groups of people. These relationships can be hostile or friendly, equal or submissive. Etc, etc. These relations also are composed of the official, on paper relationships and the real attitude of the two factions.
There are two main types of relationships, Hostile, and Peaceful. Usually espionage takes place during hostilities, and diplomacy takes place during peace. Usually...
Hostile:
Cease-Fire: (level 0)
This is a general state of disagreement without direct action, and the initial stance you have toward everyone at the begining of the game. From here you may sign a peace treaty or declare war easily. If a cease-fire is signed, the two parties may agree upon a time limit in which they agree no hostilities are to begin. If one of the factions breaks the cease-fire, they are penalized in honor. The cease-fire continues after the alloted time is up, but no penalties for renuing full hostilities will occurr.
*Economic War: (level 3, level 3 land)
This type of hostilities is short of an all out engagement of the enemy, but is nothing like a cease-fire. During an econ war, enemy trade can be attacked, and any military defending them, within your borders/waters.
War: (level 0)
This is the general state of disagreement with action. All military targets may be attacked and provinces captured. However, attacks on the populus and other non military targets are strictly forbidden by the 'laws' of war. Any such attacks take severe honor penalties.
Total War: (level 4)
This is it, the big one. You are out to take over the other faction by any means possible. Declaring total war may not be done by anyone with a positive honor rating, and takes an initial honor penalty. Any nasty action done during the state of total war incurrs no extra penalties since everyone knows your mean guy anyway.However, once total war is declared, it may not be undeclared untill you gain a positive honor rating. If you are in total war and you get a positive honor rating, you automaticly are no longer in total war, but just war.
Peaceful:
Peace Treaty: (level 0)
This is the basic state of being at least, non hostile (officially). The two factions have agreed not to attack each other ad perpetua. If one faction does so without a causus belli, then severe honor penalties occur. This treaty also allows basic diplomatic abilities otherwise unavaliable when in hostilities.
Vassalage: (level 2)
This is a submissive pact where one faction agrees to give something, whether it be money per turn, research, goods, or military, for being independant or for defense or for just not being hurt. The Vassaler may release the vassalee at any time, but the vassalee is bound to the agreement unless they revolt. Revolting sets the two factions at peace but gives the Vassaler a causus-belli against the vassalee.
Alliance: (level 2)
This is a pact between equals where both factions give and take something. This may be protection (military protection pact), offensive (military pact), this may be goods (economic pact), or an extension of a simple peace-treaty as more options open up for diplomatic action. This treaty is ad perpetua (save the military pact which ends whent he common enemy is destroyed or submissive), and breaking it without concent of both parties will result in a sever honor penalty.
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Ramo
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Austin, Texas, USA
Oct 1999
time: 23:21
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The Diplo-model looks good. A few things:
Cease-fire should probably be renamed to "Truce." The former seems a little too modern for my tastes...
I don't know if I agree with having the options of total war or economic war... Seems extraneous to me...
quote:
This is a submissive pact where one faction agrees to give something, whether it be money per turn, research, goods, or military, for being independant or for defense or for just not being hurt. |
I have different thoughts on the matter. First of all, I agree that the there should be an option where the vassal is obligated to pay the liege a certain amount of taxes annually, dependent upon what was agreed upon.
I don't know about research. Like I said in the army thread, medieval "research" wasn't similar to today's research. Any kind of research states were able to give away, they certainly wouldn't have been able to keep from the other principalities. So, I suggest not including that option.
I don't know about goods either. I don't like Civ 3's model wrt goods, for instance. It's not abstracted enough, IMO. Instead, I suggest we use taxes in cash to simulate any such obligations a vassal would have.
As for miltary service, a vassal has an obligation to to give military service to his liege during a legal war (i.e. an offensive war with a casus belli or a defensive/alliance war). If he cannot provide troops for his liege, he must give him money instead. It would work something like this:
When a player gets involved in a "legal" war, the liege can ask his vassals either to enter the war or provide equipment. If the player chooses latter, his vassals are asked to provide either (if possible) the agreed-upon army size (which he pays upkeep for) or cash instead. The liege has full control over that army while he's at war. When the liege returns to peace, the vassal regains control over the army.
Also, the liege can march through his vassal's territory at will (not historical, but nothing else would work well, IMO).
quote:
The Vassaler may release the vassalee at any time, but the vassalee is bound to the agreement unless they revolt. Revolting sets the two factions at peace but gives the Vassaler a causus-belli against the vassalee. |
I don't agree that the liege can release his vassal at any time. We're talking about a serious legal obligation, here. Also, a liege must respond to an attack of his vassal if his vassal requests it. If the vassal doesn't request it, he gets a casus belli on the attacker. Also, the liege is required not to pursue a seperate peace with the attacker; if he does the vassal gets a casus belli on the lord.
If a vassal gets a casus belli on his liege, he can terminate the vassalage without any legal reprecussions (the liege does not get a casus belli, and the vassal does not have any stability or honor problems).
Likewise, if a lord gets a casus belli on his vassal for some reason (say, he doesn't honor his contract), the liege can declare his fief forfeit, and declare war and break vassalage without any stability or honor problems; he can also annex any or all of his vassal's territory without facing any honor or stability problems.
quote:
this may be goods (economic pact), |
I'm not sure what you mean. A mutual reduction in tariffs?
quote:
or an extension of a simple peace-treaty as more options open up for diplomatic action. |
I'm not sure what you mean here, either.
________________
More on CB's:
A declaration of war without a casus belli gives a reduction in x honor and a temporary decrease in happiness for all classes by y, and the nobility by 2y.
A declaration of war with a casus belli gives no reduction in honor and a temporary decrease in happiness for all classes but the nobility by y.
An annexation of a territory with a casus belli gives a reduction in x honor and temporary decrease in happiness for nobles by y.
An annexation of a territory without a casus belli gives a reduction in 2x honor and a temporary decrease in happiness for nobles by 2y.
Where x and y are some baseline numbers.
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JMarks
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formerly known as the artist
Mar 2000
time: 05:21
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Ramo,
Thanks for the comments.
quote:
Cease-fire should probably be renamed to "Truce." The former seems a little too modern for my tastes... |
I concur, or however you spell that word. Was just using the first word that came to mind.
quote:
I don't know about research. Like I said in the army thread, medieval "research" wasn't similar to today's research. Any kind of research states were able to give away, they certainly wouldn't have been able to keep from the other principalities. So, I suggest not including that option.
I don't know about goods either. I don't like Civ 3's model wrt goods, for instance. It's not abstracted enough, IMO. Instead, I suggest we use taxes in cash to simulate any such obligations a vassal would have. |
You're prolly right about the research (which reminds me I need to add possible research bonuses for successful espionage missions). With the goods (still have no clue what wrt means), I added that in various places for two reasons. a). I don't know exatly what the end econ system will be and its better to add it as a possibility now and cut it than to forget to add it in later, and b). vassals of different periods payed in various ways their taxes. I'm particularly thinking about ancient Persia here since their 'vassals' aka subject states payed in what they could, and since this is only 200 years after a MAJOR catastrophe, goods, such as horses, cloth, etc, etc, can be just as good, if not preferable to cash, which might not be bountiful depending on the subject.
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As for miltary service, a vassal has an obligation to to give military service to his liege during a legal war (i.e. an offensive war with a casus belli or a defensive/alliance war). If he cannot provide troops for his liege, he must give him money instead. It would work something like this:
When a player gets involved in a "legal" war, the liege can ask his vassals either to enter the war or provide equipment. If the player chooses latter, his vassals are asked to provide either (if possible) the agreed-upon army size (which he pays upkeep for) or cash instead. The liege has full control over that army while he's at war. When the liege returns to peace, the vassal regains control over the army. |
I like your ideas on the military service and whatnot. This is what I had in mind, but kinda got side-tracked. It also would be nice if the liege could choose, or request the type of troops he needs. EG if his subject has awesome archers, he gets them, if he has heinous ax wielding berserkers, he gets them, etc, etc, instead of just rabble the subject would prolly rather give.
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I don't agree that the liege can release his vassal at any time. We're talking about a serious legal obligation, here. Also, a liege must respond to an attack of his vassal if his vassal requests it. If the vassal doesn't request it, he gets a casus belli on the attacker. Also, the liege is required not to pursue a seperate peace with the attacker; if he does the vassal gets a casus belli on the lord. |
I disagree, it is a serious contract, but the rights go to the liege. He SHOULD be able to offer 'freedom' to his vassel, though the vassel doesn't have to accept. If the vassel accepts the two factions start with either a peace-treaty or a simple alliance. This of course shouldn't be used for declaring war on the vassel (due to the peace-treaty/alliance), you should wait for your idea of gaining causus belli which would allow the same thing plus a war.
Otherwise I like your ideas on the conditions of breaking the vassalage.
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this may be goods (economic pact),
I'm not sure what you mean. A mutual reduction in tariffs? |
It depends on how the economic system evolves. If nice goods can be exchanged, then that, if its with terrifs, then a reduction of those, or it could be both depending on how the econ system works. Again, I'd rather throw it in as a possiblity now and cut it out than to never mention it.
Concerning the 'simple' alliance and the expanded options, you'll see what I mean when I get the diplomatic options down. There should be more choices of doing things in an alliance than in a peace-treaty. Unless of course I just rearange stuff, which wouldn't hurt either.
Once again, thanks for your comments, mucho aprieciated!
Now if only I could spell...
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Ramo
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Austin, Texas, USA
Oct 1999
time: 23:21
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quote:
I don't know exatly what the end econ system will be |
I *really* don't like the idea of a good based model. I think it would work better if we work under the assumption that states get (or don't) whatever they need through market mechanics.
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It also would be nice if the liege could choose, or request the type of troops he needs. |
Hmm... I don't know how practical this is...
Consider that crap troops will die much more quickly than good troops, so the player may not get his men back if he sends his worse.
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I disagree, it is a serious contract, but the rights go to the liege. He SHOULD be able to offer 'freedom' to his vassel, though the vassel doesn't have to accept. |
I don't know if this happened very often. I was under the impression that a liege breaking the feudal contract in any way (provided the person is a noble) was very taboo... Do you have a source?
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Once again, thanks for your comments, mucho aprieciated! |
No problem, JMark.
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JMarks
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formerly known as the artist
Mar 2000
time: 05:21
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Thanks again Ramo for your help
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I *really* don't like the idea of a good based model. I think it would work better if we work under the assumption that states get (or don't) whatever they need through market mechanics. |
However it is done, I don't ultimatly care. I'd just like to be able to get some options in the diplomacy concernint the economy. But I would hate to see all goods go. Even so, we could 'abstract' some of these state goods trade by making the gifts not so much tangeble as benificial somewhere. Such as an regular gift of horses would reduce cavalry building costs, or give the cavalry a bonus because of the extremely good horses. If the econ model won't allow for either, then so be it, but goods do get passed directly sometimes.
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I don't know if this happened very often. I was under the impression that a liege breaking the feudal contract in any way (provided the person is a noble) was very taboo... Do you have a source? |
Well, I said he offers it. The subject doesn't have to accept. Whether or not it happened often or not is not the question either, this is our own world, loosely based on a medieval atmosphere with its own history and whatnot. If the liege offers 'freedom' to a subject state, they are free to take or leave the offer. There shouldn't be too much problem with that, especially with the slightly 'emancipated' attitude the Candle 'Bre world seems to have after the disaster.
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I don't know if I agree with having the options of total war or economic war... Seems extraneous to me... |
Well, economic war might be unecissary since we prolly won't have the right type of economic system in place (or terrain since the wars I'm thinking of largely take place in the ocean) to do such a war.
However, the total war idea I would like to retain. Reason? Well, (at least in later versions of the game) your best troops come from the nobles of a land, and a father killed on the field can have a son at home ready to avenge his death. Solution? Kill enough nobles of a province so that they will not bother you anymore, or devestate beyond repair the cities and kill the villagers, burn all thier grain, etc. Granted you have to be a blood thirsty monster to do so, but here, as well as others, total war would be nice. Especially since you can't get out of it untill you are destroyed, your enemy is destroyed, or you finally get a positive honor rating. While in normal war these nasty things do and can happen and are represented, but in total war you often go out of your way to do so, to wreck total chaos upon your blood enemies. Thats the difference. Of coure right now we don't have anything sophisticated enough to allow such differences, so it can't be added into the demo version.
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Ramo
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Austin, Texas, USA
Oct 1999
time: 23:21
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However it is done, I don't ultimatly care. I'd just like to be able to get some options in the diplomacy concernint the economy. |
I was thinking of the possibility a unilateral reduction in trade barriers as a peace settlement.
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Such as an regular gift of horses would reduce cavalry building costs, or give the cavalry a bonus because of the extremely good horses. |
Well, that's your Nobles' problem. It shouldn't change your cavalry building costs (which really represents the fact that you're not getting Nobles' fees for opting out of wars) if you have more or less horses.
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Well, I said he offers it. The subject doesn't have to accept. |
Ah missed that. My bad.
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Reason? Well, (at least in later versions of the game) your best troops come from the nobles of a land, and a father killed on the field can have a son at home ready to avenge his death. Solution? Kill enough nobles of a province so that they will not bother you anymore, |
Well, you'd be lynched by your nobles for violating chivalraic codes to such an extent... I don't think it should be an option.
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or devestate beyond repair the cities and kill the villagers, burn all thier grain, etc. Granted you have to be a blood thirsty monster to do so, but here, as well as others, total war would be nice. |
This has happened anyways (in "normal wars"). Historically, peasants primarily suffered for the wars of the nobility.
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JMarks
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formerly known as the artist
Mar 2000
time: 05:21
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I was thinking of the possibility a unilateral reduction in trade barriers as a peace settlement |
Good enough for now. Might be interesting to allow the two factions to set their own trade limits/tarrifs. Depending on how the econ system works we might be able to think of some other interesting things to do.
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Well, that's your Nobles' problem. It shouldn't change your cavalry building costs (which really represents the fact that you're not getting Nobles' fees for opting out of wars) if you have more or less horses. |
Well, that was just an example since you seem to be paying for their stuff now. But I ultimately agree, though you can always offer your nobles these excellent horses that were given you by your neighbor. Other, prolly better examples of gifts would be cloth, weapons (to reduce cost of your other soldiers) and prolly others, depending on how the econ system works. Again, just a suggestion. Such gifts would only affect a certain number of troops/whatever purchased a turn.
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Well, you'd be lynched by your nobles for violating chivalraic codes to such an extent... I don't think it should be an option. |
The way I see it, if you have such a horendous honor rating to begin with, either your nobles must revolt, or they will reflect your honor rating. I'd preffer the latter untill we get an honor rating or something for the nobles of each province, in which case they might not care, or they might revolt in complete disgust. But untill then, your honor rating should basically be theirs, and if your out to gain the throne by any means, they'll be at your side.
Plus, you don't get that option right away. You can't have that option right away. First you have to do your 'research', and for the wicked and crafty, that will include invariably a total war agenda. Note that it should be at least level 4 research wise.
Now, while you shouldn't be linched by your own guys, you could very well be linched by other factions. If you declare total war against someone, all factions with a positive honor rating should gain a causus belli against you. Of course if everyone's in the gutter (honor wise), then most will prolly care less.
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This has happened anyways (in "normal wars"). Historically, peasants primarily suffered for the wars of the nobility. |
True, I mentioned that. I said that you go out of the way to be extra destructive so that your enemy has no base upon which to fall. Much like a scorched earth policy. Also, I forgot to add the enemy clergy, and other classes. In total war they are all game. Of course you'll make enemies everywhere (unless they too have such horendeous honor ratings), but thats the price of such a war.
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Ramo
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Austin, Texas, USA
Oct 1999
time: 23:21
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Other, prolly better examples of gifts would be cloth, weapons (to reduce cost of your other soldiers) and prolly others, depending on how the econ system works. Again, just a suggestion. Such gifts would only affect a certain number of troops/whatever purchased a turn. |
I don't know about that, since I don't want to overload the player or AI with too many options.
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in which case they might not care, or they might revolt in complete disgust. |
Actually, they really would lynch you. Slaughtering nobles is simply something you shouldn't be able to do, primarily because there's no way in hell it could possibly be a good thing for the player doing it.
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I'd preffer the latter untill we get an honor rating or something for the nobles of each province |
Actually, we've got happiness ratings for the Nobles in each province...
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True, I mentioned that. I said that you go out of the way to be extra destructive so that your enemy has no base upon which to fall. Much like a scorched earth policy. |
Yeah, but this has happened before in "normal" wars. See the 100 Years War, for instance.
The way I see it as that you can give orders to your men:
1. Do minimal looting, raping, killing.
2. Do moderate amounts of looting, raping, killing.
3. Rape, kill, and loot everyone you see.
The more raping, looting, and killing you order, the less the upkeep costs for your men, but the more the honor penalties when you go to war.
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JMarks
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formerly known as the artist
Mar 2000
time: 05:21
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Ramo,
quote:
The way I see it as that you can give orders to your men:
1. Do minimal looting, raping, killing.
2. Do moderate amounts of looting, raping, killing.
3. Rape, kill, and loot everyone you see.
The more raping, looting, and killing you order, the less the upkeep costs for your men, but the more the honor penalties when you go to war. |
I like this idea, works for me.
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Actually, they really would lynch you. Slaughtering nobles is simply something you shouldn't be able to do, primarily because there's no way in hell it could possibly be a good thing for the player doing it. |
Well, it really would depend on the nobles. If I recall correctly, midieval European nobles prolly couldn't care less if barbaric heathen 'nobles' were killed or slaughtered. Perhaps in the land of CB the factions may be a tad close for each other to be considered totally barbaric. However, I'd rather have the option and work it out, at least untill Vel comes in and nay-says it.
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Yeah, but this has happened before in "normal" wars. See the 100 Years War, for instance. |
So why can't the 100 years war be considered a 'total' war in CB terms? 100 years of war is a lot, and even though there were times of 'peace' during that time, they were more of a rebuild effort. France and England were at each other's throats like two rabid dogs. Sounds like total war to me.
Then again, it might be slightly extraneous. I would like more than a truce and war in the hostility catagory. I would like to see various degrees of war as we do various degrees of peace.
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03-08-2002 23:19
Having the current espionage techs readily available would be useful for discussions here.
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