04-08-2002 10:05									#1
	Preview: Battle for Britian Got spare money?

Hey all.

I've been tinkering with the new editor and I've decided to make a scenario of my own, and (obviously) I've chosen World War II in Northwest Europe.

The map was made by el mencey.

here's some stupid blurb i made up.

quote: Before American involvement in World War 2, Britian was the only major force standing between Germany and complete control of Europe. The Battle for Britian was indeed an epic one. Now you can relive history, and even chage it. What if the English invade Germany, or liberate France? (Liberties were taken with this scenario. Historical accuracy took a backseat to entertainment)

so i've plopped down all the cities, gave them all appropiate sizes, improvements, etc. I'm working on the unit balancing.

I've decided to go with thr standard tech tree, with much slower research, because im too lazy to make up my own tech tree.

I'm pondering making an RAF Fighter UU for England instead fo the Man o War. Whos got an image?

Some questions to the general public:

• What techs do you think each civ should get (Germany, Britian, France, Neutrals)
  
• I gave Ireland / Scotland to the UK for shear production purposes. Should either be neutral instead?
  

on to the screenshots.

(i traded maps to reveal all the enemy locations. you really dont start with this view )

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	04-08-2002 10:06									#2
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heres France

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	04-08-2002 10:07									#3
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and England

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	04-08-2002 10:08									#4
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heres a chunk of neutral land. they also have Amsterdam and Rotterdam.

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	04-08-2002 10:09									#5
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finally, a quick shot of the minimap

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	04-08-2002 10:12									#6
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Haverlock made a Spitfire unit that you could probably use for the RAF UU. I think he also made a couple of German WWII planes as well. Unfortunately I don't have the link to his website. Maybe someone else can provide it.

Over at Civfanatics they have a couple of different planes that could be useful: off the top of my head there's a Stuka and a generic tri-motor light bomber, plus plenty of era-specific tanks and such.

	04-08-2002 11:14									#7
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Great idea, Uber! if I may give some pointers,

1. The dimensions of Great Britain and Ireland all skewed - it's too long and narrow.

2. Surely France should be occupied by Germany? You could have barbarian riflemen to simulate the French Resistance. Dark Sheer also made a terrorist unit.

3. You shuld change the tech tree so that any kind of naval transport isn't available until really late in the game, so as to prolong the air war. Also, give fighters and bombers the lethal sea bombard ability.

4. The Luftwaffe should vastly outnumber British Fighter Command, but the British should get superior fighters.

5. The British airforce also had limited reinforcements from American P-51 Mustangs, as well as Canadian and Free French planes.

6. Here's a link to Haverlock's page, with some WWII planes: Haverlock's Civilization 3 Page

And a link to where you can d/l WWII leaderheads GIDustin's Civilization 3 Area

	04-08-2002 11:43									#8
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quote: Originally posted by zulu9812 Great idea, Uber! if I may give some pointers, 1. The dimensions of Great Britain and Ireland all skewed - it's too long and narrow.

I was actually thinking about that myself before I started, but I was more interested with the cities / units than the terrain itself

quote: 2. Surely France should be occupied by Germany? You could have barbarian riflemen to simulate the French Resistance. Dark Sheer also made a terrorist unit.

Again, I had thought about it and started to do it (If you have a keen eye, you'll notice Rheims is under German Control).

For some reason I couldn't think of a WW2 Scenario that didn't start of with the Blitzkreig of the French. Perhaps I should make this scenario post-blitzkreig.

If I leave it the way it is, however, it allows for a bit more flexibility for alternate history fans. England could make soem beach landings and take over Northern Germany / Denmark, and cripple German bombing raids.

The Blitzkreig turns would also give a little buffer zone for the British. It wouldn't start out the first turn as bombings, there'd be a little ground forces clash, and then bombing runs. (The French aren't set up to survive for that long )

Plus, some people (myself included) like to play as the "underdog" civ. I played the WW2 Scenario for civ3 as the Turks / Spanish a bunch of times. Me and 3 friends played once, one took Germany (duh), one took the Allies (duh again), the other took Russia, and I took Spain.

I allied with Germany for a while, and I got a huge chunk of France

I'll really have to think about it.

quote: 3. You shuld change the tech tree so that any kind of naval transport isn't available until really late in the game, so as to prolong the air war. Also, give fighters and bombers the lethal sea bombard ability.

After What Ed O' War said, and what I confirmed, I'm going to HAVE TO change the tech tree now, if i want the player to be able to pick a side.

I guess i could go long winded and make a series of units for each civ. Might as well now.

As per the navy, thats a good idea. Although historically messed up (and i have no problem with that ) it would allow the air war to go on for a while. I do like the current suitation with German U-Boats in the Atlantic and Denmark Straits waiting for the British destroyers and battleships though.

Another valid and interesting suggestion.

I also have to read up on the use of Carriers in WW2 on the european front. I know they played major roles in the Pacific, but were they ever used effectively by the UK?

quote: 4. The Luftwaffe should vastly outnumber British Fighter Command, but the British should get superior fighters.

Exactly. British better stats, Germany more planes, weaker planes, CHEAPER planes.

quote: 5. The British airforce also had limited reinforcements from American P-51 Mustangs, as well as Canadian and Free French planes.

A good idea, but how would it work?

quote: 6. Here's a link to Haverlock's page, with some WWII planes: Haverlock's Civilization 3 Page

Thanks, I glanced it over real quick and i'll definately check it out more tomorrow morning.

quote: And a link to where you can d/l WWII leaderheads GIDustin's Civilization 3 Area

Thanks again, downloaded the Churchill / Hitler leaderheads.

More Questions:

Who should command the Neutrals (currently he's called "Leader Man" )?

Who should command the French (possibly 2 answers, pre and post-blitz, i havent decided which way to go)

	04-08-2002 13:48									#9
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Well, there's a DeGaulle leaderhead available for France, again from GIdustin's site I think.

How big is the map? Since you're dealing with a relatively small area you could make it a huge map and really go to town on the detail. I suppose it depends if you can be bothered with it .

As far as British allies go, if you add Mustang P-51's to the unit lis, but not buildable by any of the civs in the scenario, you could just give the British a contingent of them at the start of the game. The Mustang can be d/l from Haverlock's site. I don't know what planes the Canadians and Free French flew, sorry.

	04-08-2002 22:18									#10
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Another possiblity to represent American reinforcements is to tie it to a technology called something like 'Lend/Lease' or 'United States Declares War', or something like that. Make it non-required to advance to the next era (that way the Axis don't have to research it). Then tie American units into that technology. By making it a technology, you can use the research tree as a crude timing mechanism to represent the U.S.'s later entry into the war. U.S. units should be cheaper to represent America's industrial might. You may also want to make them a little bit weaker than British/French units, to give the player a reason to still make the more expensive European equivalent units. Well, it's an idea anyways.

	04-08-2002 22:29									#11
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quote: Originally posted by zulu9812 Well, there's a DeGaulle leaderhead available for France, again from GIdustin's site I think.

again, thanks

quote: How big is the map? Since you're dealing with a relatively small area you could make it a huge map and really go to town on the detail. I suppose it depends if you can be bothered with it .

it's 100x100

quote: As far as British allies go, if you add Mustang P-51's to the unit lis, but not buildable by any of the civs in the scenario, you could just give the British a contingent of them at the start of the game. The Mustang can be d/l from Haverlock's site. I don't know what planes the Canadians and Free French flew, sorry.

I think I'll try Ed's suggestion, making a "America Declares War" Tech.

I may actually make 2 "seperate" tech trees. should be interesting to try i suppose.

Would it be possible/feasible to start the British in the "ancient" era, and the Germans in the "industrial" era, with the German starter techs making the british units "obsolete"?

hrmmmm....

i'll have to figure that out.

oh, and about the map size, i posted this in another thread so i'll bring it over. A british bomber has a max range of 8 tiles (hardcoded), so this is the bomber range from London.

if the map was any bigger all we'd hit was water

	05-08-2002 02:17									#12
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That's an interesting idea using the eras to create separate technology chains for the different sides. So theoretically you could have up to four different tech chains going. However, I don't quite see why the German starter techs have to make the British units obsolete--just use the units tab to select who can build which units.

One possible problem with this approach is with buildings and wonders. If both sides can build the same improvement/wonders, then you would need to have a copy of each building for each tech chain. That is, of course, unless you don't care about tying builidngs/wonders to technologies, in which case you could set the technology for each building to 'None'.

	13-08-2002 15:53									#13
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Any progress on this? Need any help?

	18-08-2002 03:12									#14
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Uber - if you've abandoned this could you post/send me the bic?

	18-08-2002 10:30									#15
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Hey Uber it looks great so far, but what about RRs in Europe?

	18-08-2002 11:03									#16
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UK, Denmark should be under Nazi control. Even if it's the start of the French blitzkreig, Germany had already captured both Denmark and Norway by the spring of 1940.

	18-08-2002 21:06									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Trip UK, Denmark should be under Nazi control. Even if it's the start of the French blitzkreig, Germany had already captured both Denmark and Norway by the spring of 1940.

noted. I was hoping to give the Neutrals a fighting chance

quote: Originally posted by trevor Hey Uber it looks great so far, but what about RRs in Europe?

There are RRs in Europe. Most of Germany has RRs (the southern parts and Polish parts are lacking a bit). France has RRs connecting some of their major cities.

quote: Originally posted by zulu9812 Any progress on this? Need any help?

I've been real busy lately (leaving for college in 2 days. getting all my stuff together). Right now all i really need is to make a tech tree, however annoying that is.

Also, I have to give the units to the civs. All the civs have a basic garrison, Germany/England has some / bombers / uboats / fighters / battleships. Germans have soem panzer divisions.

I have to give units all around and then try to balance them. I do want France to fall rather quickly though.

I've been tossing around the idea of actually having the navy come with a later tech, forcing the Air battle to last a while, but it might be stupid considering half the world cant hit the other half.

On a map of this size, we're going to need Aircraft Carriers, no matter how historically inaccurate.

"The Germans Massive Aircraft Carrier Fleet Approaches Scotland"

maybe i could make JUST transports come later, and give them subs / ACs / battleships / destoryers right off the bat. hrrrmmm...

also, the idea of "nation-spacific" resources is intriguging to me.

Perhaps i could make an island in the middle of the atlantic to represent American aid for the British, and give them a special resource that allows those cities to build Mustangs. These cities wouldnt have harbors (they'd be inland), and I guess they couldnt have airports either.

	19-08-2002 00:54									#18
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Battle of Britain. We weren't fighting over our land. We were fighting over it. In the air that is, rather than for possession.

	19-08-2002 01:20									#19
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quote: Originally posted by UberKruX noted. I was hoping to give the Neutrals a fighting chance

Well, you see, the problem with that is that they didn't have a chance. Are we making a scenario, or a mod?

	19-08-2002 02:52									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Trip Well, you see, the problem with that is that they didn't have a chance. Are we making a scenario, or a mod?

i played as the neutrals in the civ2 version of ww2 and laid the smackdown on the germans.

sure, the scenario ended WAY before that, but it still worked

i loved playing that as Spain.

	19-08-2002 04:13									#21
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just some quick thoughs:

1. the German lost many pilots due to the short range of the Me 109 and the order not to leave the bombers allone, no matter how much fuel is left. You should keep this in mind while setting the Aircraft ranges

2. the German fighters weren't invinerior to the RAF planes, the lack of a heavy german bomber was the achilles heel of the Luftwaffe (for example the attacks on the british radar did so few damage that it was repaired quickly, sometimes even within 24 hours)

3. you should keep the arming of the planes in mind when setting lethal sea/land bombing.
A Stuka with 2 3,7cm Paks under its wings will have a hard time sinking a ship while it can easily take out tanks.


ps: taking over the world with neutrals rules

Last edited by tarpoon on 19-08-2002 at 05:24