04-08-2002 16:42									#1
	Bus bombing in northern Israel Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2171227.stm

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast...east/index.html

Another spin of the wheel, with no end in sight...

But there is something curious about Hamas' justification for the attack. It's almost the same as IDF's justification for the recent assassination of the
Hamas leader, whatever his name was.

Looking at the attacks, both targeted participants in the conflict (soldiers vs. terrorist leader), both have civilian casualties (apartment building vs. bus), that can be termed collateral damage because there was no other feasible way of taking down the target.

Looks like to me that Israel is starting to drop the ball here, their callousness starting to resemble terrorists' tactics just a wee bit too much. This attack was SO easy to spin for Hamas, it's making me really upset.

quote: "This operation inside Israel is an operation against Israeli soldiers who were going to the battlefield of Palestine," said Issmael Abu Shanab. "This is the reaction of the Palestinians against the insistence of the Israelis to continue their occupation to the Palestinian land."

	04-08-2002 16:49									#2
	Remove this text

yes, of course , it was a revenge. They wouldn't have done it , If the evil Israelis wouldn't kill their leader.

	04-08-2002 16:53									#3
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on a less cynical note , I would like to note that the fact that hamas told that this is a revenge for the death of one of their leaders , and targetted military targets, doesn't mean it actually is the fact. Remember, they also TARGETTED pizza parlours, disco clubs, etc. This is just an excuse.

	04-08-2002 17:07									#4
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I know it's an excuse.
But what if it were done by a new organisation that vows to only target combatants? It's still a busload of dead people, with an excuse just as good as used by Israel recently.

	04-08-2002 17:57									#5
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

At any time the Palestinians can put Sharon on the wrong side of the moral issues simply by dropping the deliberate attacks on civilians and engaging in Civil Disobedience combined with attacks on military targets. Why they can't figure this is out is their weakness.

Anytime Sharon wants to exercise more descretion he too can damage the Palestinians moral position of an oppressed people fighting back. All he has to do is be a lot more selective and actualy start trying people in public and stop allowing Israeli settlements on occupied territory that is supposed to become Palestinian someday.

If the Pals ever do it right Bush will have a damn hard time continueing to support Israel. Sharon is lucky that the Palestinians are too enraged to think straight.

	04-08-2002 18:03									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Ethelred If the Pals ever do it right Bush will have a damn hard time continueing to support Israel. Sharon is lucky that the Palestinians are too enraged to think straight.

If the Pals ever do it right the Israeli public will be Sharon's major problem, not Bush.

	04-08-2002 21:08									#7
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hi ,

just when are they going to let us do our job , .....

without restrictions , .......WHEN , ......grrrrrrrrrrr

have a nice day

	04-08-2002 21:13									#8
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some pics

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	04-08-2002 21:13									#9
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more

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	04-08-2002 21:14									#10
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last one

Last edited by panag on 04-08-2002 at 21:20

	04-08-2002 21:18									#11
	Suffering from ads?

All jobs have restrictions. Even for most soldiers. Sign the Geneva Convention? You have restrictions. Attilla the Hun? You have restrictions. Yes realy. He had to produce plunder as his troops didn't care about conquest except for the plunder it gave them.

Israel is restricted because its supposed to be a decent people fighting for survival not conquest. Would you have it otherwise?

	04-08-2002 23:30									#12
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I think my post went so high over Panag's head that it almost caused a plane crash...

	04-08-2002 23:32									#13
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well when you see your people being blown up and then you have to listen to "justifications", it tends to do that to you.

	05-08-2002 00:05									#14
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What were the Allied justifications for leveling civilian areas of Europe when attacking the German forces? And didn't they target troop trains and transports all the time?

Perspective is an amazing thing...

	05-08-2002 00:09									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov What were the Allied justifications for leveling civilian areas of Europe when attacking the German forces? And didn't they target troop trains and transports all the time?

To win the war.


And what was the justification for the Nazis to kill 6 million Jews again?

	05-08-2002 00:14									#16
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How is that relevant? We're talking about a bombing here.

Do you think the war was fought to save the Jews? Do think the Allied governments gave a damn about the Jews?

Not at all.

The justification is the same for the Palestinians...to win their war. Step back and look at all sides for a change.

	05-08-2002 00:16									#17
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Oh, I do. It's you who apparently just need to gain a moral highground from it

	05-08-2002 00:17									#18
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oh , and Jaakko, the Israeli army said that it regretted the death of the civilians. You'd never hear it from Hamas.

	05-08-2002 00:18									#19
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Or maybe you need to just get off your moral high horse?

Neither side has any claim to a moral high ground in this disasterous war. Both have acted with shamelessness that is boggling to the mind. Villify whomever you want, but looking at things in black & white is foolish.

	05-08-2002 00:21									#20
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I said that when your people are being blown up, you are not too prompt to listen to "justifications".

You jumped in and started rambling about Germany.

Hardly a solid base for a conversation Boris.

Go on and ramble on.

	05-08-2002 00:24									#21
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Sure, because it's allegory, not rambling. By this logic, the Allies were no better than Palestinian terrorists in the war. I'm sure the good folks of Dresden wouldn't disagree with that.

	05-08-2002 00:28									#22
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Ethelred At any time the Palestinians can put Sharon on the wrong side of the moral issues simply by dropping the deliberate attacks on civilians Anytime Sharon wants to exercise more descretion he too can damage the Palestinians moral position of an oppressed people fighting back. If the Pals

I'll buy Tom Friedman's argument about this from "From Beirut to Jerusalem." He talks about double entry moral bookkeeping. You keep one set of books to show the rest of the world how righteous you are, and another set to show your neighbors how ruthless you are." The Middle East has its own ethical logic -- "I'm stronger than you so don't attack me." In other words, all that turn the other cheek stuff is just so much spin control.

Lock them all in a steel cage with blind folds and butcher knives. The ones who come out get to own the inhospitable dump. In the long run, it'll save lives.

	05-08-2002 00:31									#23
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Equating World War II with the Middle Eastern conflict simply won't cut it, Boris.

Try not to be so blatantly biased because of your German roots.

	05-08-2002 00:37									#24
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Yeah, never mind the fact that both of my grandfathers fought for the American army in Europe.

Troll better next time.

	05-08-2002 01:32									#25
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Oh great, my thread is taken over by two arguing morons...

Dalgetti, I'd be more affected by those regrets if it lead to restraint on IDF's part. As it stands nothing else is happening except further deepening of the cycle of violence.

	05-08-2002 01:39									#26
	Increase the size of your Attachments

oh common. Restraint? It's not like Israel is using artillery or something. We both know that if Israel behaved the way the US behaves now in Afghanistan , we'd be banned from the UN , and probably had war declared upon us.

	05-08-2002 01:42									#27
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 well when you see your people being blown up and then you have to listen to "justifications", it tends to do that to you.

µ

hi ,

"thank you"

have a nice day

	05-08-2002 01:43									#28
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The situation is just a wee bit different than Afghanistan isn't it? I'd be applauding you all day if you did a big operation followed by a huge buildup effort in order to get an independent, democratic Palestine up and going.


Edit: and Dal, "oh common"? What does that mean?
Edit2: never mind...

	05-08-2002 01:52									#29
	Got spare money?

it means " come on, ". yes , I know.

and we're trying to make a rebuild effort , together with the US. really. Personally, we're doing them enough favor by letting them work for us, as it is.

	05-08-2002 02:10									#30
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Well the effort isn't obviously amounting to much, seeing as how the Pals are getting poorer and poorer. And I really, really hope you were joking with that last comment.