06-08-2002 07:27									#31
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network backbone

we don't really need +5 econ, its the +2 thats important. i'd rather go for knowledge than wealth, especially withe the UNP's -1 effic and with eudaimonia

	06-08-2002 07:35									#32
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I'm quite fond of the economy bonus because of the overall boost of research and energy credits. But for sure, économy +4 is already sufficient.
Thanks for the english's lesson

	06-08-2002 07:44									#33
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i can understand how it might be a bit tricky translating the network backbone into english. in this case heart and backbone mean the same thing. what's it called in french?

	06-08-2002 07:56									#34
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It is "le coeur du réseau", literraly "Network's heart".
It is interesting to see that the french use the heart for defining the center of a network and that the english use the backbone.

	06-08-2002 14:48									#35
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Thou shouldn't think too much about the SE Choices yet..
perhaps we end up in War with the first ones we meet which would make Economy >2 plain Stupid (No Commerce anyway)
Also u shouldn't count to much on Future society's.. Most games are over then anyway

	06-08-2002 21:09									#36
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I would still support a Knowledge/Eudaimonia SE setting above Wealth or Cybernetic, as I intended when founding this party. That way we get +2 Research, +2 Economy AND + 2 Industry, another important stat for our builder goals. Also remember that our party stands, besides for technological and economic growth, also for equal chances for personal development and free education (hence Know/Eudai), as they are the engine for progress and prosperity.

Btw, things are going bad. We gained no new members at all today, while the number of people supporting fundamentalist and war parties are still growing. I fear for our future.

Edit: Is that Network Backbone that important anyway? If we are going Cybernetic, I suppose it would be in combination with FM, so our police rating will suck anyway.

	06-08-2002 21:25									#37
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but if we need to station units out of our territory for some reason, or if we have any air units, the +1 from ascentic virtues (if we get it) would bring us up to -4 which is only 1 drone per unit out of territory instead of -5's 2 drones. i'm ok with eudaimonia though, just IMHO, market/cybernetic is better for research.

about PBs and atrocities. i would never launch a PB, in fact i'd never even build one. the AI has never launched one at me before with the charter in place, and then only once with it repealed. i wouldn't worry about it. as for nerve gas, i don't see us needing it. i only use it against aliens, or against humans when playing aliens in SP. i've never seen the AI build X units, except miriam once after i PBed her in a scenario. i never nerve staple except maybe with the charter out, and we've decided we want to keep it in place (right?)

	06-08-2002 22:16									#38
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Ah yes you're right about the Ascetic Virtues. Let's hope then we can convince the community to divert resources to that project. Even the warmongers can't be against that SP.

Well personally I neither see the need for building PB's or nerve gas units in this un-alien game. But DBTS does, though he wouldn't use them. Let's just wait what a new member thinks before deciding on the party policy.
Meanwhile, is everyone ok with making "keep the UN Charter" as official party policy? I am.

	06-08-2002 22:20									#39
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with the ascentic virtues in place, we can grow to size 11 without hab complexes!

	06-08-2002 22:28									#40
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And size 18 with them. Who needs Habitation Domes!

	06-08-2002 22:30									#41
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quote: Is that Network Backbone that important anyway? If we are going Cybernetic, I suppose it would be in combination with FM, so our police rating will suck anyway.

Yes for sure, but during war-time, if we go for planned economy, it will be very usefull as our police, instead of -3 because of cybernetic, will be 0. And the police is especially needed during war-time.

quote: he +1 from ascentic virtues (if we get it) would bring us up to -4

Even with ascetic virtues, the police will stay at -5 because SMAC is counting the malus even above the maximum. So, ascetic virtues, in FM and cybernetic, will be useless. Unless we build the network backbone.

For the SE, I'm quite flexible between wealth and knowledge / cybernetic and eudemonia. I think we will have to choose depending of the situation in the game.

I'm mostly agree with TKG concerning the atrocities, excepted one point. I usually build PB for discouraging the other factions to use their against us and I think it has also a diplomatic power during the negociations.

We should also try to agree on a general policy of the party.

As Maniac said, we should concentrate on strong economy and technological lead. And as a runner for the foreign affairs, I support only defensives wars and strong ties with our ideological friends ---> Morgan and Zakarov. I'm also against any destruction of any faction I'm pro make them sign a "pact to serve us" (?).

	06-08-2002 22:35									#42
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in a war i'd rather go with green, because we'd be making more energy with +2 efficiency than with planned's -2. if we make it that far, thought control becomes the greatest wartime SE assuming we get the cloning vats (-3 support hurts! 2 mins per unit!).

also, in effect, living refinery cancels the negatives of democracy.

	06-08-2002 22:42									#43
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quote: if we make it that far, thought control becomes the greatest wartime SE assuming we get the cloning vats

For sure but it is completely contrary at our party's policy. We support creativity and freedom and thought control is it's antithesis.

	06-08-2002 22:45									#44
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I agree with Juliennew. In my personal games I also use Thought Control and Power sometimes when at war and having the Cloning Vats, but let's not do that here for the sake of roleplaying.

	06-08-2002 22:46									#45
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And it would beat everything being a democracy with psychic control.

	06-08-2002 22:50									#46
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so what if we have a war? we cant very well wage war under eudaimonia. cybernetic i guess.

	06-08-2002 23:04									#47
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Even if we officially are against Power and Thought Control, I suppose we would be forced by the hawk parties to choose those SE settings when at war...

	06-08-2002 23:07									#48
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We should think of a good combination avoiding power and psychic control and try to go for the SP that can help to counterbalance our malus.

	06-08-2002 23:13									#49
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hi i have been gone for a while...about the nervegas....if the charter is appeal (what we do not want!!!) it is great against units NOT in bases...quickly wipe out any units outside the bases with nervegas and take the city.....the SE choises are ok by me execpt future but thats a long way to go.......

	06-08-2002 23:16									#50
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Mid-game settings:
Democracy: Living Refinery
Free Market: Ascetic Virtues, a few empath worm killers and one punishment sphere
Knowledge (or Wealth): Hunter-Seeker Algorithm

End-game settings: as DBTS says, we haven't even started yet.

	06-08-2002 23:28									#51
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i think that the hawk party is only made up of Civers who havn't played SMAC before, so im not sure if they'd know anything about SE.

About the gas though, the fation will still hate you forever and not surrender regardless of whether or not you use it on their bases.

i think we should try to secure the empath guild and vote ourselves supreme leader. if we gas someone, then they'll deny the will of the council, and we'll have to win some other way.

	06-08-2002 23:32									#52
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I concur TKG

	07-08-2002 00:17									#53
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ok then no gas but I am a strong supporter of building PB. orbital defense (and other sattilities) and the hunter-seeker A

	07-08-2002 00:20									#54
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Yes DBTS, I'm also for building PB but against any use of them. It should be only for diplomatic's pression purpose. I'm also for building orbital defense and the hunter seeker A, especially if we have malus in probe.

	07-08-2002 00:21									#55
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we do need ODPs. just in case the AI out of some freak decision makes a satelite, we need to shoot it down.

	07-08-2002 00:42									#56
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about the defence minister (if we get more members) this is a very importent minister bacuse (let me just quote Sun Tzu here)

Master (tzu = master) Sun said:
the art of war is of vital impotance to the state. It is a matter of life and death, a road either to safety or to ruin.Hence under no circumstances can it be neglected.[...]a wise general makes a point on foraging on the enemy.[...]the highest form of generalship is to balk the enemy`s plans; the next best is to prevent juction ot the enemy`s forces; the next i order is to attack the enemy`s army in the field; andthe worst policy of all is to besiege walled cities.[...]if you know your enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hunderd battles. if you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. if you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.

i do not advocate war....but it is importent that we have good intel. get thing from the enemy (I will not use the word stealing). and foremost win without fighting (diplomacy)

well? (I am a Sun Tzu fan....sorry )

	07-08-2002 00:45									#57
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if I wasnt running for first commissioner I would be running for defense minister.....(highist tactical advisor of my clan in multiplayer games of 'C&C redalert II' and 'age of wonders' but that in the old days )

	07-08-2002 08:28									#58
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How does one go about joining this party? Its ideals seem to run parallel to mine far more than the other development parties out there.

	07-08-2002 08:39									#59
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no archaic! no! what you do is go to the hawk party thread and say you want to join the hawk party. simple. as soon as you ask to join, your in (the hawks)

	07-08-2002 08:47									#60
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Yes, come on Archaic. We are peacefull builders here