07-08-2002 19:03									#61
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Define it.

	07-08-2002 19:36									#62
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Source....Dictionary.com

Since there are definitions for country that include things like "country music" or "rural areas" I'll do it a bit different and more definative.

United States
Abbr. U.S. or US or U.S.A. or USA

A COUNTRY of central and northwest North America with coastlines on the Atlantic and Pacific oceans. It includes the noncontiguous states of Alaska and Hawaii and various island territories in the Caribbean Sea and Pacific Ocean.

European Union
Abbr. EU
An economic and political UNION established in 1993 after the ratification of the Maastricht Treaty by members of the European Community, which forms its core. In establishing the European Union, the treaty expanded the political scope of the European Community, especially in the area of foreign and security policy, and provided for the creation of a central European bank and the adoption of a common currency by the end of the 20th century.

One is a COUNTRY the other is a UNION.

Please find a definition of the US or EU that disputes the above listed definitions.

	07-08-2002 19:37									#63
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He can't.

	07-08-2002 19:39									#64
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Of course he can't, but since he's a lawyer, I'm sure he'll find another dog to wag.

	07-08-2002 19:44									#65
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quote: Originally posted by rah One is a COUNTRY the other is a UNION.

Well I asked for a definition of "country", not for dictionary entries for US or EU,

I fail to see the destinction between "Union" and "Country" that you seem to emphasize.

"in order to form a more perfect union"
"the several states which may be included in within this Union"
"new states may be admitted by the Congress into this Union"
"The United States shall guarantee to every state in this Union".

Etc. You know the source.

Also, the United Kingdom is a Union. So I assume it is no country, then ?

	07-08-2002 19:45									#66
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH He can't.

Huh ?

	07-08-2002 19:47									#67
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http://www.maildropnet.com/maildrop...s%20License.htm

quote: IMPORTANT NOTE: The "United States" is NOT a country within any legal definition of the word..... It is a Corporation and a legal fiction. America and the "United States" do NOT mean the same thing. America is a country, the "United States" is NOT! Acceptable names for the "COUNTRY OF ISSUE" Mexico, Canada, Great Britain, Germany, Philippines, Australia, Panama, Japan, etc.

http://software.design.tripod.com/bankruptusa.htm

quote: United States Defined Few Americans realize that there are three definitions for the "United States." Most have been misled to believe that the term "United States" has a single meaning and is a generic term referring to the country as a whole The Second definition states "United States" (D.C.) has its own citizens (see United States v. Cruikshank, 92 U.S. 542) who are generally referred to as United States citizens. The yellow fringed flag signifying this jurisdiction is not for decorative purposes. It signifies the jurisdiction of the District, also known as CORPORATE U.S. FEDERAL that has been extended into the Union states by the 14th Amendment.

	07-08-2002 19:49									#68
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Countries have their own foreign policy and despite what they may think the EU doesn't.
Countries (99% of them anyway) have a seat at the UN the EU doesn't
Countries have their own armed forces the EU doesn't

	07-08-2002 19:52									#69
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Roland: X-Post, I was saying Rah couldn't define country.

This site is so damn slow! Can't do anything.

Stinger: I think the point is not to show that the EU is a country but that it's equivalent in terms of immigration to the US. Basically Rah has made one of those stupid Americancentric claims but can't actually back it up with any real evidence. Roland's being annoyingly laweristic and wanting proof and having access to all kinds of great facts.

Oh and I know those links I posted are ****.

	07-08-2002 19:53									#70
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quote: Originally posted by TheStinger Countries have their own foreign policy and despite what they may think the EU doesn't. Countries (99% of them anyway) have a seat at the UN the EU doesn't Countries have their own armed forces the EU doesn't

If you equate "country" with "sovereign state" as defined under international law you are correct that the US is one, the EU is not. Although there is an EU foreign policy. Well, actually there are two...

	07-08-2002 19:57									#71
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Btw, there is a growing opinion that EU member states are post-sovereign states (esp MacCormick), or that sovereignty can only be seen as vested in the Union and its member states together (various concepts of european constitutionalism, eg Häberle).

	07-08-2002 19:58									#72
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The EU may have a foreign policy in name, but it only matters when Germany, France and The UK all agree at the same time which is not exactly common.

	07-08-2002 20:01									#73
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That's the CFSP, yes. Although agreement is quite common, it's just not spectacular and gets little media attention.

The other part of foreign policy consists of the parallel powers of the Community, especially trade policy.

	07-08-2002 20:05									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Roland That's the CFSP, yes. Although agreement is quite common, it's just not spectacular and gets little media attention. The other part of foreign policy consists of the parallel powers of the Community, especially trade policy.

I know they do agree, but its on issues such as Zimbabwe, however if they come up against a difficult one such as Iraq and they are hopelesley divided.
Trade is what their good at if you ignore agriculture which is run purley for the benefit of farmers in france and the club med countries

	07-08-2002 20:06									#75
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"X-Post, I was saying Rah couldn't define country."

Oh.

Well I'm just having a bit of fun. You know I finished that manuscript yesterday and I'm "reorganising" my office now, so my brain has way too much spare capacity...

	07-08-2002 20:10									#76
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quote: Originally posted by TheStinger I know they do agree, but its on issues such as Zimbabwe, however if they come up against a difficult one such as Iraq and they are hopelesley divided.

Iraq will be an interesting test. I do not deny that the CFSP is still in its infancy, but it has made substantial progress already. Being devided, that's the curse and blessing of federal or power dividing structures. If in the US Congress and President are divided over an issue it has pretty much the same effect - gridlock.

	07-08-2002 20:35									#77
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Wag wag wag,
He has done nothing to disprove my claim.
IN FACT, if you use the percentages provided in the links HE provided and multiply them against the appropriate populations counts, he is proving my claim for me.
Instead he can do nothing but ask me to define country.
Which he knows that while their is almost universal acceptance of the concept leads to the normal circular definition in the dictionary. Country... a nation. Well, define nation, Nation.... a country.

Wag wag wag.
But I'll admit his stratagy was quite effective based on what is currently being discussed here. He must be an excellent lawyer. But he lost the original arguement and I appreciate that he took the time to prove it for me.

RAH
And it's great signature material.

	07-08-2002 20:40									#78
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I give it a 4 on the concession speech scale.

Btw you should use some sort of " or < to separate the quote in your sig.

I can now go to another claim of yours....

	07-08-2002 20:42									#79
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Rah: That is one of the smuggest things I've seen in a long time.

Your figures only support the numbers of people going to the US, not the claim that more people in the world want to live in the US than anywhere else.

	07-08-2002 20:54									#80
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Actually the smugness comes from the fact that he's reduced himself to arguing the definition of a country. Which for the life of me, doesn't really seem to have anything to do with what I will admit was an "unsubstantiated trolling boast", which he promptly posted links supporting my boast. TROLL SCORE.

I never said that more people in the world wanted to live in the US. (I did go back and check) Even though what I actually said was equally inane.

Come on, I was trying to use the fact that a lot of people want to be citizens of the US and might do what appears to be crazy things to accomplish it. Which would explain why women would marry criminals in jail (original topic of thread)
Everything else was just gravy.


Thanks, I'll modify the quote.

Rich

	07-08-2002 21:06									#81
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Maybe but my argument is that the vast, vast majority of those immigrants aren't from other western developed countries.

There aren't hordes of English women trying to think of any possible way to become US citizens including marrying a death row inmate. The idea of it is ridiculous. Anyone that does is just a sad, lonely, nutter.

Some people might go to the US to work or marry an American and go to live there. A lot of Americans marry Brits or come to work here. I bet the levels are about the same each way and most of your immigrants are from poor less developed countries, the same as ours are.

	07-08-2002 21:06									#82
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quote: Originally posted by rah Sorry, I looked and found no source that gave a simple summary. But reading the sites that I did, it's not even close, the US is by far the leader. (and this only counted legal aliens) The estimates for illegal aliens were unbelievable. The world does vote with it's feet.

People do indeed vote with their feet. While US emigration data is notoriously sketchy, estimates show an annual emigration of roughly 30k to the UK and Germany each, for the 1980s at least. US emigration is on an upside trajectory according to the US census and INS.

http://www.ins.usdoj.gov/graphics/a...stics/Est99.pdf

Comparing this with immigration from the UK gives averages of roughly 10k per year; Germany's not even in this top 20 list:

http://www.ins.usdoj.gov/graphics/a...s/IMM2000AR.pdf

Also if you look at the nrs there for "Europe" and subtract the eastern european countries, immigration from western europe as a whole to the US is a trickle. Maybe 50k at most.

The two data sets aren't fully comparable. But it again reveals the simple truth that people simply look for better lives. Not a US flag.

	07-08-2002 21:15									#83
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Quite the bulldog you are If I need ever need a lawyer. You've obviously expended considerably more time than I checking references. Thank God I'm not paying your hourly rate.

What do these individual stats have to do with it? I claimed the world, not individual countries. (which you nicely posted to remind me) I'm sure there are exceptions, I didn't say there weren't. But I'm sure there are some English Women that want to be US citizens. Just like there are US women that want to be citizens elsewhere.

And I will admit that people simply look for a better life
whether it be the US or an EU country. But that wasn't part of my claim either.

Rich

	07-08-2002 21:20									#84
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And MikeH, I agree with what you said 100%. I never questioned it.

There aren't of horde of women marrying convicts, just a few. Which we were discussing THEIR motivation.

	07-08-2002 21:21									#85
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I know.

But as I said my brain is severely underemployed today....

One full bin of paper. Couple dozen reorganized folders. This will take at least another day....

	07-08-2002 21:22									#86
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But that wasn't part of my claim either

It wasn't your claim, but the claim was used as a basis for a conclusion.

The conclusion will change if the basis is shown to be misleading.

Just a comment.

	07-08-2002 21:34									#87
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No the conclusion was that it was posible motivation for a few wacko women to marry serial killers. (pure speculation)

	08-08-2002 16:48									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin I'd be interested to see the per capita immigration figures for many countries. Also breakdowns per states EU and US...

There's a fresh eurostat press release detailing EU net immigration.

http://europa.eu.int/comm/eurostat/...N&mode=download

In 2001 the UK was last of the 5 big member states though....

	08-08-2002 17:52									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Roland In 2001 the UK was last of the 5 big member states though....

Wow, I never knew England was a "big member state". Congratulations fellows!

	08-08-2002 18:45									#90
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Big members.