06-08-2002 06:59									#1
	Shouldn't science come from taxes? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Does anyone find it interesting that in all civ games, the player allocates gold either to taxes or science or luxuries?

Shouldn't science and luxuries come from taxes? In other words, it should be the money that you get in taxes that goes go to science and luxuries. After all, that is what taxes are for, right?

Instead, it is actually the money that does not go to taxes, that goes to science. Weird

I realize that civ is not suppose to be 100% like real life. I am not neccessarily advocating changes or anything. I realize that this is how it has always been done.

I was just wondering if anyone knew why it is done this way.

Last edited by The diplomat on 06-08-2002 at 07:08

	06-08-2002 07:39									#2
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See, I've always liked the tax slider, because to me, you had your government stickin its fingers in and taking its cut, while the rest was for advancing your civ scientifically, or for the people to consume for their happiness. And that these other things occurred without intervention from your palace/throne room. (Of course, I'm one of those people that still believes in the "Invisible Hand" at work, so sue me for my laissez-faire attitude. ) I've started observing it in the way you suggest, though, with Civ 3, because of the way the sliders work. There is no Tax slider as in the other two games. Implicit in that, at least to me, is the idea that all things not taxes in this game spring from an allocation of funding from the government. And like you, I'm not going to demand that they put that tax slider back, because in my case, ideology can stuff it while I'm playing. (Neither am I looking to start a political/ideological flame war, so put your flamethrowers down now. ) It's just a game, nothing serious. Interesting observation though.

	06-08-2002 07:59									#3
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I already see science as something that is coming out of taxes. Let me put it this way . . . put your "tax rate" at 100%. That amount is the amount of taxes your empire collects. Now boost your science rate to 10%. You now have 10% of your taxes going to science (government research or whatever you want to call it). The remaining 90% is a . . . what's the word? Oh, yeah . . . surplus.

**WARNING**
A surplus in government spending is a foriegn idea to those of us who live in the USA. Please be understanding.
**END WARNING**

Get my point? Or am I missing your point?

	06-08-2002 09:34									#4
	Re: Shouldn't science come from taxes? Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by The diplomat Does anyone find it interesting that in all civ games, the player allocates gold either to taxes or science or luxuries? Shouldn't science and luxuries come from taxes? In other words, it should be the money that you get in taxes that goes go to science and luxuries. After all, that is what taxes are for, right? Instead, it is actually the money that does not go to taxes, that goes to science. Weird I realize that civ is not suppose to be 100% like real life. I am not neccessarily advocating changes or anything. I realize that this is how it has always been done. I was just wondering if anyone knew why it is done this way.

What on earth are you talking about? Of course science is coming from taxes! Last I looked, there's only two sliders, Research and Luxuries, both of which get paid for from the amount of revenue your empire draws in. Which can be considered taxes. Whatever's left ends up in your treasury.

Where exactly do you see an issue with this arrangement? Or are you still playing Civ II and not III? I don't mean to sound antagonistic here, but it seems to me like you're playing a different game than I am.

	06-08-2002 10:24									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Chronus **WARNING** A surplus in government spending is a foriegn idea to those of us who live in the USA. Please be understanding. **END WARNING** Get my point? Or am I missing your point?

You know, we used to have a surplus, back before they came up with the income tax scam.......

	06-08-2002 10:39									#6
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb You know, we used to have a surplus, back before they came up with the income tax scam.......

Oh give me a break! If it wasn't for income tax the US would never have been able to out spend the USSR, and put an end to the Soviet Union. The money had to come from somewhere.

Personally, I would like to have seen that cash go towards alleviating poverty and injustice around the world, but unfortunatley you Yanks aren't that enlightened yet.

Besides, you guys were showing a fairly healthy surplus before George W. came to power.

	06-08-2002 11:22									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Chronus **WARNING** A surplus in government spending is a foriegn idea to those of us who live in the USA. Please be understanding. **END WARNING**

Many of the legislators in our government have law degrees, and are/were lawyers. Now, wasn't it Shakespeare that has a quote attributed to him about what we should do with lawyers...?

	06-08-2002 18:54									#8
	Re: Re: Shouldn't science come from taxes? Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Willem What on earth are you talking about? Of course science is coming from taxes! Last I looked, there's only two sliders, Research and Luxuries, both of which get paid for from the amount of revenue your empire draws in. Which can be considered taxes. Whatever's left ends up in your treasury.

We just have a different way of looking at things. You see the total amount of gold all your cities are producing as being your tax revenue. Thus, the science and luxuries do come from taxes. I see the gold all your cities produce as being your economy.
In civ3, your interpretation makes sense, since there is no tax slider anymore.

In civ2, there was a tax slider. So, I naturally always interpreted the tax slider as being your tax revenue. Thus, the science and luxuries were not coming from taxes!

I would like to note that the mechanisms in civ2 and civ3 are exactly the same. Civ3 gets rid of the tax slider saince it was totally redundant. But the mechanism is the same in both games!

quote: Originally posted by Willem Where exactly do you see an issue with this arrangement? Or are you still playing Civ II and not III? I don't mean to sound antagonistic here, but it seems to me like you're playing a different game than I am.

I am playing civ3, of course!

Like I said in my opening post, I have no problem with the civ3 arrangement. I was just trying to start an interesting discussion, that's all!

	06-08-2002 18:59									#9
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Or like in CTP..

You got money from your cities. Then that money went to pay improvements, tithes (if you had cities converted to other civs' religion), etc. Then what was left was split between science and surplus.

	06-08-2002 19:14									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Willem Besides, you guys were showing a fairly healthy surplus before George W. came to power.

But anyways. I look at it like this. There is 100% taxation. The Gov takes it all.

If you raise the Science bar you have devoted that % to reasearch.

Now by raising the luxuries bar you have just given the people a tax cut. Which in turn makes them happy and more productive.

So lets say under a Monarchy. The King takes all that the people earn. He gives 40% to the scientists to increase their knowledge, and he keeps the rest for himself and the Kingdom.

Then the people are upset, they have learned of this new thing call "The Republic". The king is ousted, but under fair elections he is still the leader. So, he still takes 100% of what you earn and gives 40% to the scientists. And then he announces a 10% tax cut, giving it back to the people.

	06-08-2002 23:47									#11
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City’s produce “commerce”, which can be used for research, give you gold or make people haply. You always control how commerce is allocated. Government type olny influences how much is produced.

You have to remember that Civilization is more of a God game then a government simulator. You’ve probably also noticed that you live for over 6050 years and never fall from power no matter how many revolutions you’ve have.

	07-08-2002 01:27									#12
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quote: Originally posted by seano1 City’s produce “commerce”, which can be used for research, give you gold or make people haply. You always control how commerce is allocated. Government type olny influences how much is produced.

Yeah, I know how the game works.

quote: Originally posted by seano1 You have to remember that Civilization is more of a God game then a government simulator. You’ve probably also noticed that you live for over 6050 years and never fall from power no matter how many revolutions you’ve have.

Yes, that is one cute little unrealistic quirk!

	07-08-2002 01:42									#13
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quote: Oh give me a break! If it wasn't for income tax the US would never have been able to out spend the USSR, and put an end to the Soviet Union. The money had to come from somewhere.

The USSR is gone but I'm still giving half my income to the goverment

quote: Personally, I would like to have seen that cash go towards alleviating poverty and injustice around the world, but unfortunatley you Yanks aren't that enlightened yet.

The US spends most of its Tax revenue on welfare and social programs, consquently we have some of the wealthiest poor on earth

	07-08-2002 01:56									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Zanthis The USSR is gone but I'm still giving half my income to the goverment

Well somebody has to pay for that ridiculous strategic defence system Bush is so proud of. How many billions is that going to cost again? Besides, it's obviously more important for the multi-million dollar corporations to get tax breaks, rather than the common worker.

quote: The US spends most of its Tax revenue on welfare and social programs, consquently we have some of the wealthiest poor on earth

I hate to burst your bubble, but the US has the lowest spending on social programs of any of the industrialized nations. I think you'll find that defence spending is by far the largest expenditure.

	07-08-2002 02:30									#15
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quote: I hate to burst your bubble, but the US has the lowest spending on social programs of any of the industrialized nations. I think you'll find that defence spending is by far the largest expenditure.

actualy thats not true...

From the office of budget managment:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2003/bud34.html

Scroll down to table s-2 where it shows the total amount of money spent (outlays). The total spent on defence in 2002 was 336 billion dollars, compaired to non defense discretionary, social security, medicaid, etc... it comes out to about 1.5 trillion dollers, almost 5 times as much as defense spending!!!

	07-08-2002 02:33									#16
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Careful Zanthis, you may burst the stereotype bubble.

	07-08-2002 02:59									#17
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Wow...this actually had some potential to be a thread with some interesting discussion on something no one ever really thinks about, where we didn't go dragging each other's countries through the mud or anything.....how could we have come so far. *Places a certain nameless individual in the void the ignore zone* Anyway, go get 'im, Zanthis. A little truth never hurt anyone. *Drops this thread like a bad habit*

	07-08-2002 04:09									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Zanthis actualy thats not true... From the office of budget managment: http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2003/bud34.html Scroll down to table s-2 where it shows the total amount of money spent (outlays). The total spent on deffence in 2002 was 336 billion dollars, compaired to non defense discretionary, social security, medicaid, etc... it couls out to about 1.5 trillion dollers, almost 5 times as much as defense spending!!!

Why is it that I get a Gambling.com pop-up window when I access your supposed link to an official US government web site? I realize that George W. is pro-capitalist, but I doubt very much if he's gone to that extreme. If you're intention is to hoodwink someone, you're going to have to do a much better job than that!

	07-08-2002 04:15									#19
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What the bloody hell are you talking about Willem? I understand you have some issues and an axe to grind, but jesus. That's a genuine government page.

	07-08-2002 04:37									#20
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Willem, you must be having a bad day...
The popup appears every time (at least I believe so) you click on an http address in a post on Apolyton. I guess it is a deal Mark has with the sites promoted by the popups.

	07-08-2002 04:37									#21
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quote: Originally posted by N. Machiavelli What the bloody hell are you talking about Willem? I understand you have some issues and an axe to grind, but jesus. That's a genuine government page.

The first time I clicked on that link, I ended up with a pop-up for Gambling.com. After doing my own search, I ended up with the same page you listed, without the pop-up, so it's obviously legit. Either someone is linking to the US gov site, or I have something on my system that's pointing there when I click on your link.

Sorry for not believing you, but I no longer accept anything at face value if there's the least bit of doubt in my mind.

	07-08-2002 04:43									#22
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quote: Originally posted by vondrack Willem, you must be having a bad day... The popup appears every time (at least I believe so) you click on an http address in a post on Apolyton. I guess it is a deal Mark has with the sites promoted by the popups.

You're probably right. That's the first time that's ever happened to me though, so it made me rather suspicious. It's not always healthy to believe everything you see or read, especially when it comes to the Internet!

	07-08-2002 05:13									#23
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quote: Originally posted by N. Machiavelli I understand you have some issues and an axe to grind, ...

And yes I have an axe to grind. I don't appreciate the fact that George W. is hell-bent on dragging the world into a war because of it's squabble with Iraq. Though I admit a forum such as this is not the place to stir up nationalist resentment.

And that's as much of an apology as anyone's going to get out of me until I start hearing the Bush administration making cooperative overtures to the rest of the world, instead of trying to force it's agenda on everyone else!

	07-08-2002 06:07									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Willem And yes I have an axe to grind. I don't appreciate the fact that George W. is hell-bent on dragging the world into a war because of it's squabble with Iraq. Though I admit a forum such as this is not the place to stir up nationalist resentment. And that's as much of an apology as anyone's going to get out of me until I start hearing the Bush administration making cooperative overtures to the rest of the world, instead of trying to force it's agenda on everyone else!

If you want to talk politics, go to the Off-topic section, please. Don't highjack my thread!

	07-08-2002 07:23									#25
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat If you want to talk politics, go to the Off-topic section, please. Don't highjack my thread!

Sorry, I got a little carried away there.

	08-08-2002 08:01									#26
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In real life wealth is generated by the people in the form of goods and services. Goverments take a portion of that wealth in the form of taxes, tithes, tolls, tarrifs, etc. In games terms, I guess, those complex systems of wealth generation are represented simply by commerce and taxation represented by the ammount of gold your civ collects each tern (before paying for unit support, buildings ,etc). Your civ then pays mandatory (in the sence that if you don't pay, for it, you loose it) costs for units, buildings, other civs etc. Finaly, a portion of that wealth can be allocated to fund science, or create public works (art, theater, social programs, whatever makes people happy). The remainder goes into the treasurery for future use.

Fundementaly, the civ games take complex, real life institutions and boil them down to simplistic representations. Enjoyment of the game depends alot on the imagination of the user to invent what ever explinations seem suitable.

	08-08-2002 22:20									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Zanthis Fundementaly, the civ games take complex, real life institutions and boil them down to simplistic representations. Enjoyment of the game depends alot on the imagination of the user to invent what ever explinations seem suitable.

Agreed. But I don't think it would have been that complicated to implement. You don't have to change the game's fundamentals.

Cities would produce gold exactly the same way. No changes. Then, a certain % of it would go into taxes bases on the tax rate. Science, unit support, maintenance etc could only be used from the amount of gold that taxes took in.

The gold that is not taken by taxes, would be automatically put into luxuries. You would not even need the luxury slider anymore!