07-08-2002 01:40									#31
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"What I am saying is that its unfair for me to have to go through all this because I am choosing to respect the laws of the USA."

I understood what you were saying. Yes, life is unfair. But we can't stop progress just so that everything is fair to you.

"Surely you can see that its wrong to give lawbreakers a free ride."

I can see it very clearly. On the other hand, my sense of proportion indicates that it is of lesser importance to some other wrongs and indeed some goods.

Do you wanna pick fruit for 12 hours a day in California?

	07-08-2002 01:43									#32
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quote: Originally posted by DanS "What I am saying is that its unfair for me to have to go through all this because I am choosing to respect the laws of the USA." I understood what you were saying. Yes, life is unfair. But we can't stop progress just so that everything is fair to you.

Not just to me, but to every law abiding person living in America.

quote: "Surely you can see that its wrong to give lawbreakers a free ride." I can see it very clearly. On the other hand, my sense of proportion indicates that it is of lesser importance to some other wrongs and indeed some goods. Do you wanna pick fruit for 12 hours a day in California?

Are you suggesting that is what I would be doing if not for illegal aliens?

	07-08-2002 01:51									#33
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"Not just to me, but to every law abiding person living in America."

Every law abiding person in America is also getting their compensations. Don't cry for us. Immigration, whether lawful or unlawful, is a huge boon economically.

"Are you suggesting that is what I would be doing if not for illegal aliens?"

Well, somebody would be doing it, if there were not enough illegal/legal aliens coming into the country.

So I propose that in order to gain citizenship, you are an indentured servant for 6 years. You Cal, are to be a banana picker.

	07-08-2002 01:52									#34
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Illegal immigrants should be deported, border security should be increased and talk of amnesty should be outlawed.

Those who are waiting to LEGALLY immigrate to the US have to wait even longer to get in because the status quo has been filled by illegal immigration.

People who abide by the law should not be punished for doing so; people who break the laws should be, and immigrants should be required to learn English, IMO.

And what of the gaps that will be created when the illegal workers are deported? Companies will realize that they have to raise salaries to get people to work for them.

And how many of you commenting on this live in the US, anyway?

	07-08-2002 01:56									#35
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"talk of amnesty should be outlawed"



"And what of the gaps that will be created when the illegal workers are deported?"

FYI, there would not be enough workers.

	07-08-2002 01:57									#36
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quote: Originally posted by DanS "Not just to me, but to every law abiding person living in America." Every law abiding person in America is also getting their compensations. Don't cry for us. Immigration, whether lawful or unlawful, is a huge boon economically.

Think of what a greater boon it would be for national security and economically if we actually knew who was coming in and they all paid taxes.

quote: "Are you suggesting that is what I would be doing if not for illegal aliens?" Well, somebody would be doing it, if there were not enough illegal/legal aliens coming into the country. So I propose that in order to gain citizenship, you are an indentured servant for 6 years. You Cal, are to be a banana picker.

I would stay in NZ if that was the case.

	07-08-2002 01:59									#37
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The illegal crossing of 5 million people from one country to another has historically been called something other that "illegal immigration": it has been called invasion.

I think that we should deport every single illegal immigrant in this country. Before they are deported, they should be registered. Once registered they should automatically be denied legal entrance to the country. If they are found to have again entered the country illegally, they should be shot. Illegal immigrants are a bane to our country. They disrespect our rule of law simply by being here. Moreover, many are linked to the drug trade or other illegal activity. They fraud our welfare system and take away jobs that rightfully belong to legal citizens. How many terrorists in the U.S. are illegal immigrants? It is time for us to take a stand against these people.

	07-08-2002 02:12									#38
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"Think of what a greater boon it would be for national security and economically if we actually knew who was coming in and they all paid taxes."

No greater, economically.

The majority appear to be paying their payroll taxes by making up a social security number and paying toward it. By doing this, they contribute, while being unable to take advantage of the benefits that normally accrue.

Further, about half of all workers pay no federal income taxes. It seems likely that most illegal immigrants would fall into that category.

As to the national security, that's why we're even caring in the first place. Two years ago, nobody gave a toss that we found an extra 10 million people within our borders. It was the hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil arrangement I talk about above.

	07-08-2002 02:22									#39
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quote: Originally posted by DanS "Think of what a greater boon it would be for national security and economically if we actually knew who was coming in and they all paid taxes." No greater, economically. The majority appear to be paying their payroll taxes by making up a social security number and paying toward it. By doing this, they contribute, while being unable to take advantage of the benefits that normally accrue.

Benefits? Are you referring to receiving SS when you get old? SS will be bankrupt before I get old enough to benefit from it.

quote: Further, about half of all workers pay no federal income taxes. It seems likely that most illegal immigrants would fall into that category.

...and if they were here legally they would be paying federal income taxes. How is this not a boon economically?

quote: As to the national security, that's why we're even caring in the first place. Two years ago, nobody gave a toss that we found an extra 10 million people within our borders. It was the hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil arrangement I talk about above.

Unfortunately we arent caring enough now either. You do realize that by granting amnesty to all illegal immigrants in the US you would also be granting amnesty to members of Al Qaeda who live here don't you?

	07-08-2002 02:22									#40
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To be clear, I think the solution is to give a broad amnesty, increase our border and other internal security, but do away with these silly immigration quotas.

This is really the only way to do it.

	07-08-2002 02:25									#41
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DanS: Wouldn't setting up a guest worker program rather than mass amnesty be more politically palatable at this point in time? It would also have the advantage of avoiding insulting the people who immigrated legally.

	07-08-2002 02:29									#42
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"and if they were here legally they would be paying federal income taxes."

No they wouldn't. They don't make enough money. As I stated, only about half of workers pay federal income taxes.

"Are you referring to receiving SS when you get old? SS will be bankrupt before I get old enough to benefit from it."

There are lots of other benefits. Like disability benefits and death benefits for dependants.

"You do realize that by granting amnesty to all illegal immigrants in the US you would also be granting amnesty to members of Al Qaeda who live here don't you?"

Why would this be so? I propose that we spend a lot more in background checks for prospective citizens.

	07-08-2002 02:29									#43
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quote: Originally posted by DanS FYI, there would not be enough workers.

The availible openings could be filled by increasing the number of legal migrants into the country. You know... people who aren't criminals.

	07-08-2002 02:29									#44
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quote: Originally posted by DanS To be clear, I think the solution is to give a broad amnesty, increase our border and other internal security, but do away with these silly immigration quotas.

By giving broad amnesty you will make it much easier for terrorists already living in the US, and easier for terrorists outside the US because the ones granted amnesty will be able to sponsor relatives to get them in legally.

What immigration quotas are you referring to?

	07-08-2002 02:33									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin The availible openings could be filled by increasing the number of legal migrants into the country. You know... people who aren't criminals.

Why not fill those jobs with unemployed citizens? Those jobs could help the U.S. with its welfare to workfare situation. Why shouldn't we be able to fill those jobs? Is the U.S. unemployment rate at .001%? No. Fill the illegals' jobs with Americans.

	07-08-2002 02:37									#46
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quote: Originally posted by DanS "and if they were here legally they would be paying federal income taxes." No they wouldn't. They don't make enough money. As I stated, only about half of workers pay federal income taxes.

I misunderstood. When you said "workers" I thought you were only referring to illegal immigrant workers when you seem to be referring to legal workers.

quote: "Are you referring to receiving SS when you get old? SS will be bankrupt before I get old enough to benefit from it." There are lots of other benefits. Like disability benefits and death benefits for dependants.

Why cant we set up a guest worker program that enables us to have them working here legally without giving them those benefits?

quote: "You do realize that by granting amnesty to all illegal immigrants in the US you would also be granting amnesty to members of Al Qaeda who live here don't you?" Why would this be so? I propose that we spend a lot more in background checks for prospective citizens.

So you would only grant amnesty after extensive background checks on every illegal? Doesnt sound economically feasable when you are talking about millions of people. It would be cheaper to deport them.

	07-08-2002 02:44									#47
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"Wouldn't setting up a guest worker program rather than mass amnesty be more politically palatable at this point in time? It would also have the advantage of avoiding insulting the people who immigrated legally."

Aha!!! Thank you for moving the ball forward, Dino.

It would be more politically palatable, but I would not want any part of it. The main reason is that I would rather them be permanent Americans rather than guest workers who are Mexicans.

It's a matter of social investment and influence. Re investment, we want these people to be fully invested in the communities in which they live and work. Re influence, we want their kids to speak English and be snot nosed American mallrats.

Realize that Pres. Fox does not want this. He will be pushing the guest worker program. What is 4% of our population is 10% of his! Bush, if he knows what's good for him, will push for amnesty.

In the long term, I do not want a two-tiered society of citizens versus guest workers. This is the way it is in places like Hong Kong, for instance. The guest worker program we have now is modestly sized and is geared toward pushing these people toward citizenship after a couple of years. This is generally thought to be very good, because they are generally high skilled. But I don't see much of a difference between high skilled and low skilled--the U.S. benefits greatly from all immigration.

	07-08-2002 02:57									#48
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Living in one of the epicenters of illegal immigration I've had the chance to read more then a few op ed articles on the subject. The concensus is that the federal government does alright with tax revenue from illegals (alright but still less then legal immigrants) however the state and local governments loss their shirts. What makes it so outrageous is that nearly all of the services the illegals use are payed by the state and local government while the fed effectively has washed their hands of situation.

Unemployment benifits, subsized housing for the poor, AFDC, food stamps, education, and health care at free clinics are all payed for by the state house or city hall. All of these things are expensive items that illegals get for free but don't pay nearly enough taxes to pay for.

Take for example public education. The L.A. times has stated that 50% of all children in L.A. unified are either illegal or the children of illegals. Very few of these children speak English so expensive bilingual education (these is the PC term for Spanish instruction 90% of the day with an hour long class on English; BTW most "bilingual education" kids graduate 12 years of school and still can't speak English) becomes necissary and most of the children also require remedial classes in just about every subject. Again this is terribly expensive and illegals contribute almost nothing to paying for these services so citizens and legal visa holders must work even harder to make up for these law breaking free loaders.

	07-08-2002 02:57									#49
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Re influence, we want their kids to speak English

That's another debate altogether.

quote: Realize that Pres. Fox does not want this. He will be pushing the guest worker program. What is 4% of our population is 10% of his! Bush, if he knows what's good for him, will push for amnesty.

9/11 changed the political dynamics on this issue, Dan. There is good reason to think that Bush was moving toward granting mass amnesty, if only for the potential political benefits it could give the Republican party. However, I don't foresee Bush spending political capital on an issue he is very likely to loose on.

	07-08-2002 03:09									#50
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"9/11 changed the political dynamics on this issue, Dan. "

Perhaps so, Dino. I have been watching...

"That's another debate altogether."

You omitted the ellipse, damn you! I think they could all be wrapped into one.

"Why not fill those jobs with unemployed citizens?"

Good question, nationalist. Full employment is between 4 and 5%. When in between those numbers, employees have ample pricing power and can hop jobs when they want to. When it drops below 4%, you can't even get your fvcking garbage picked up and everybody has a title.

We are now at 5.9% unemployment including illegals.

	07-08-2002 03:17									#51
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"Very few of these children speak English so expensive bilingual education (these is the PC term for Spanish instruction 90% of the day with an hour long class on English; BTW most "bilingual education" kids graduate 12 years of school and still can't speak English) becomes necissary and most of the children also require remedial classes in just about every subject."

Thought y'all passed a referendum against this a couple of years ago.

	07-08-2002 03:29									#52
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

We passed the law but special interests have tied it up in the courts ever since. Can you believe these "activists" claim that it is a human right to have Spanish only instruction in American schools? How the hell do they expect these kids to get jobs in the US if they can't even speak the national language?

It's just another example of special interests playing political football with education while the kids turn out the big losers.

	07-08-2002 03:55									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Once you give amnisty to current illegal migrants you will find the new migrants won't believe us when we tell them they have to follow the legal visa process; they will no doubt, correctly, assume that another amnisty will be offered once the number of illegals in the country gets high enough.

And they would be correct since that has ALREADY happened. If this happens it will not the first immigration ammnesty.

	07-08-2002 04:01									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Ethelred And they would be correct since that has ALREADY happened. If this happens it will not the first immigration ammnesty.

Right you are my friend. I despise that we have rewarded people for breaking the law.

	07-08-2002 05:30									#55
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quote: Right you are my friend. I despise that we have rewarded people for breaking the law.

Well we're rewarding people who've worked hard for years for **** pay and no social services and who's only crime is exactly that. Doesn't seem so bad for me, especially my and probably your ancestors went through the same **** that every new wave of emigrants gets coming into the states.

	07-08-2002 05:43									#56
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Actually Boshko my ancestors took the time to fill out the legal forms, wait in line, and abided by every law this country had. My Father's family did this even though in 1946 it was very hard to get a visa to move from Scotland to California and they were turned down on their first two tries. So yes I am angry that some persons can simply flaunt the laws, sneak across the border in the dead of night, and then be absolved of their crimes while the rest of us had to play by the rules.

As for the only crime these people commited being to work hard. How about entering the United States without a valid visa, failing to pass a legal customs inspection, using false documents & false social security numbers, evading taxes, and (if my own experience seeing people running across a 10 lane freeway to escape from prosueing border patrol agents is any indication) resisting arrest from a lawful peace officers of the United States. BTW that last one is a felony.

It is nice that these people have decided not to become repet offenders and have ceased commiting crimes, however, the fact remains that they did commit crimes and thus they are criminals.

Last edited by Oerdin on 07-08-2002 at 06:13

	07-08-2002 07:09									#57
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Oerdin: You're pretty harsh, man. The fact that they broke the law is important, but you are whining about a situation that benefits you economically on a net basis. Not only are they being rewarded for breaking the law, but you are too for them breaking the law.

Look, immigration is a necessary part of the American way of life. Our economy creates jobs faster than we can bring them in the door. But the political reality means that we have laws that purposely ignore this fact. Because we can't get our sh!t together politically on the issue, we have illegals.

President for a day time. What would you do in this political climate to eliminate illegals, while not harming the economy? Make sure to remember the splits in your own party over the issue, the national security considerations, and that Tyson Foods supports a good number of well paying jobs!

Last edited by DanS on 07-08-2002 at 07:29

	07-08-2002 07:29									#58
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Dan S

Maintaining the integrity of a nation's rule of law is more important to a nation's longterm survival than the strength of its economy.

	07-08-2002 07:34									#59
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They broke a supremely unjust law, so we should deport them.

Hitler or Stalin would enjoy having y'all as citizens.

	07-08-2002 07:39									#60
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nationalist: I'm not going to buy into your either-or scenario. We hire our politicians to give us both. Believe it or not, I expect them to be able to walk and chew gum at the same time.