06-08-2002 09:52									#1
	Just Naturalize Them Already Enter the AD-FREE zone

Why do we insist on playing an illegal immigration charade? We have millions of people who work in the US, their employers want them, but they are illegals.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...3-2002Aug5.html

Eventually, you just have to document them and make them American citizens, no? What is to be gained by not giving them regular status? Are we actually going to kick them out?

	06-08-2002 11:11									#2
	Tired of ads?

We can abolish immigration laws when we abolish things like the minimum wage.

	06-08-2002 11:18									#3
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Isn't the justification 'if we naturalize them we'd get 5 million new illegal mexicans overnight'?

	06-08-2002 12:33									#4
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If they really wanted to stop illegal immigration all they have to do is fine the employers to death. Yep, that's right next time joe-blow meat packing company or acme fruit company wants to save a few bucks by hiring subminimium wage illegal workers the government should fine them $1million per illegal worker found at the company.

The result is the companies that get caught using illegal labor will be put out of business and corporate executives will begin to think twice about trying to get out of paying minimium wage. No jobs for illegal workers = no illegal workers.

	06-08-2002 12:34									#5
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If they are illegal, why are they in this country? I am all for immigration, but we need to enforce our rules.

	06-08-2002 12:38									#6
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Yeah, it is quite annoying to actually go through the hoops of being here legally, while it on one hand doesn't stop millions of illegal mexians, and on the other hand doesn't stop terrorists or determined cheaters either...

It would be like having a tax system without an IRS... Seriously, would you pay tax if you knew they didn't check your returns?

	06-08-2002 12:52									#7
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quote: Just Naturalize Them Already

Against their will? Most illegal alliens are here to work not to become Americans. After they make some money a very large percentage goes back home.

	06-08-2002 13:04									#8
	Tired of ads?

If they don't find employment at Joe-Blow Meat Packing Company or The Acme Fruit Company doesn't that just leave them the option of crime to survive on ? Besides, if they aren't employed there you no longer know where to look for them. But if you're turning a blind eye, maybe that's not a problem.

	06-08-2002 13:58									#9
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Gary If they don't find employment at Joe-Blow Meat Packing Company or The Acme Fruit Company doesn't that just leave them the option of crime to survive on ? Besides, if they aren't employed there you no longer know where to look for them. But if you're turning a blind eye, maybe that's not a problem.

You see my friend these people are intentionally breaking the law in order to gain economic benifit. They come to the U.S. because they know they can find a job here that pays much better then the Mexican national average which is around $2 per hour. The jobs are the magnet which draw them here ergo if there is no job then they would not come here.

There has been study after study done in University Sociology departments that show people follow the jobs. If you can't make a living in one place then people will go some where else. There are jobs in Mexico but people know they will find willing employers in the US who will higher them at $5 (which is below minimium wage but still more then twice what they'd get back home) so why stay in Mexico? Why bother to go through the process of legally entering a country if you can simply walk into the desert and sneak across at night?

You can round up an deport the illegals but as long as there are "good paying" (this is relative) jobs to be had there will always be someone will to rish arrest and deportation to get it. After all these people have nothing to lose, however, the employers do have something to lose. The threat of losing all the capital, hardwork, and time spent building a business would make even the most heartless capitalist think twice.

The problem is most employers are currently slapped on the risk. The illegals get deported but the company only pays a fine of around $100 per worker (this can go up for repeat offenders). By breaking the law the employer saves more then that every day or two so even if he is cought once every year or two he will still be up hundreds of thousands of dollars after paying the fine. There simply aren't enough negative effects to diswad employers from breaking the law. Thus we should make the punishment so harsh that these gready bastards are forced into bankruptcy.

	06-08-2002 14:03									#10
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

What happened to give us your poor?

did Uncle sam put up the no vacancy sign?

	06-08-2002 14:17									#11
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They are welcome to come as long as they wait in line like everyone else. There is a legal process to get a visa and file as an immigrant but citizenship is not free and people are forced to study for citizenship tests in order to be granted an immigrant visa.

These people think they are to good to follow the rules and simply do what ever the hell they feel like. Every nation has the right to control its borders this includes being able to doing background checks to make sure people aren't wanted criminals, that they aren't smuggling drugs or contraband, that they aren't carrying infectious deseises, and intend to follow the laws of their new host country.

	06-08-2002 14:43									#12
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Interesting point, maybe you guys really are turnng a blind eye for the sake of cheap labour and the economy

	06-08-2002 14:44									#13
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Youll have to excuse Hydey. Being a criminal type is part of the entry requirements for Australia

	06-08-2002 14:59									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Gary Interesting point, maybe you guys really are turnng a blind eye for the sake of cheap labour and the economy

No doubt about it. Every time someone starts to think about actually enforcing labor laws & the minimium wage in industries that attract a lot of illegals then the farm Owners and butcher companies all start throwing money at the politicians in order to continue the status quo. There are to many vested interests who want the cheap labor.

	06-08-2002 15:00									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Gary Youll have to excuse Hydey. Being a criminal type is part of the entry requirements for Australia

	06-08-2002 15:30									#16
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Hmm your political system is even worse than ours for that. And we have enough discussion about financing the parties here.

There was a suggestion that funding should come from public funds, which personally I approve of as it means it can be limited by whatever algorithm one uses and breaks the link between donations and suspected favours. But it doesn't seem popular for some reason. Don't know why, however you fund Joe Public pays in the end.

However, to my horror the other day I heard on the radio that someone is trying to suggest the public funding is to be used to top up voluntary donations rather than replace it ! Sod that ! That no only fails to break the link but gives more of my money so the parties can indulge in more of their "Ya Boo Sucks" games at each other.

	06-08-2002 19:11									#17
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

here's where i stand.

i'd prefer our immigration laws to be strongly enforced; but i want them to get rid of quotas depending on where you come from.

if we are to naturalize them, it must be blind to origin-- we can't just naturalize ONLY the hispanics, which is what the bush administration set out to do-- it's discriminatory, especially for all the asians who wanted to get here legally but couldn't because of the quota.

so: enforce and abolish quotas; or, relax, and be blind to origin.

	06-08-2002 19:20									#18
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The minimum wage is hardly enough to live on as it is - abolishing it would hurt too many people, even though it would be a great boon to free trade and it would nearly eliminate illegal immigration from Mexico.

	06-08-2002 19:43									#19
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OK, a good cross-section of opinion here.

First off, I don't mind enforcing our immigration laws, but enforcement has always been a joke. The feds have pretended to enforce the laws, Americans have pretended to care that the laws are what they are, and the body politic has pretended that we have had low immigration levels.

In short, we have a hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil policy.

But we have a built-in 4% or 5% of our workforce who are illegals because of it. Enforcing our immigration laws now, without naturalizing these people doesn't make a whole lot of sense. You just can't deport 4% or 5% of your workforce without a counterbalance. It just doesn't work!

Then we have this fight against terrorism, where it's suddenly important to know who is in the country and who isn't. You aren't going to deport these folks, and you are still going to turn a blind eye toward their employers, but then you are going to make life difficult for them with all of this federal "checking up"?

No matter the incentives, and no matter the principle involved, you just have to bite the bullet and make them American citizens. Otherwise, our books are always going to be off.

	06-08-2002 23:18									#20
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I question the 5% figure and I'd like to know where you got it from; it is possible but it seems a little high to me. I have a great amount of resistence to the idea of rewarding people for breaking the law. Once you give amnisty to current illegal migrants you will find the new migrants won't believe us when we tell them they have to follow the legal visa process; they will no doubt, correctly, assume that another amnisty will be offered once the number of illegals in the country gets high enough.

We need to deport the illegal aliens back to their countries of origin, fine the companies which break labor and wage laws out of existance, and greatly increase law enforcement efforts.

	06-08-2002 23:39									#21
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Why should I have to go through the hassle of immigrating here legally when people who come here illegally are being given citizenship??

	07-08-2002 00:21									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Why should I have to go through the hassle of immigrating here legally when people who come here illegally are being given citizenship??

Ask DanS. That is the typical arguement made against amnesty programs of the type he is suggesting. I don't think that I have ever seen an adequate answer to it though.

	07-08-2002 00:39									#23
	Inflate your Upload Space

From the article:
"unauthorized workers account for less than 4 percent of the U.S. labor force but are concentrated in a few industries, including construction, hospitality, textiles, meatpacking and agriculture."

As expected the illegal immigrants are concentrated to labourintensive branches. Construction and agriculture is branches that there's problems doing anything about, at least if you don't want more expensive housing (as I live in a country that unlike most western countries have very few immigrants - legal or illegal - working in counstruction I'd say you should be glad about them) or give up on the domestic agriculture (it's not easy to make a farmingmachine to pick strawberries...).

However, textiles is a branch where the country of origin is of little or no importance to the consumer. The textilecompanies that uses illegal immgrants should move abroad or replace the workers with machines. This is holding back potential increases in productivity.

... and what the *bleep* is 'hospitality'? Hospitals?

	07-08-2002 01:02									#24
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

"I question the 5% figure and I'd like to know where you got it from"

The 7 million covered under Social Security gets you to 3.5% referenced in the article plus any number of others who fly completely under the radar.

This squares with the roughly 8-10 million people who were "found" all of the sudden in the 2000 census and the unexpected payroll taxes that have been rolling into Uncle Sam's coffers.

"I have a great amount of resistence to the idea of rewarding people for breaking the law."

Guess what? They are already here. They are already being rewarded.

"they will no doubt, correctly, assume that another amnisty will be offered once the number of illegals in the country gets high enough"

And rightly so. It's the way it's always been done.

"We need to deport the illegal aliens back to their countries of origin, fine the companies which break labor and wage laws out of existance, and greatly increase law enforcement efforts."

Yes, that's what we "need" to do. But hey, guess what? It has never happened in the U.S. and the economy would be greatly harmed if it happened.

The hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil policy would say that we are doing something, when in fact we aren't. This has been going on for decades.

Last edited by DanS on 07-08-2002 at 01:12

	07-08-2002 01:11									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Why should I have to go through the hassle of immigrating here legally when people who come here illegally are being given citizenship??

I cannot answer for your misperception about the way things work here in the States. This is the way we have always squared the books. It's very practical.

Anyway, lighten up. It's not like you would anwer "yes, I have commited a crime, but have never been caught" on your immigration forms.

	07-08-2002 01:12									#26
	Inflate your Upload Space

The government (especially republicans) get caught in between businessmen who want cheap labor and Newsmaxian Knownothing types, the current situation is really a pretty amazing compromise. The businesses get dirt cheap labor with relatively few hassles and better yet labor that won't do annoying things like dry to get decent pay because they have deportation hanging over their heads and while the Newsmaxian types certainly whine alot immigration is somewhat limited and the illegal immigrants can't vote so the Knownothings come off fairly well...

	07-08-2002 01:25									#27
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by DanS I cannot answer for your misperception about the way things work here in the States. This is the way we have always squared the books. It's very practical.

Misperception? Millions of illegal aliens were given amnesty in the mid 90's, so why should I have to bother doing it the legal way?

quote: Anyway, lighten up. It's not like you would anwer "yes, I have commited a crime, but have never been caught" on your immigration forms.

Or

quote: While in the US, do you plan to engage in a) espionage?

	07-08-2002 01:26									#28
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It's not "especially Republicans" Boshko. The cleavages are everywhere. For instance, the industrial unions speak no evil even though they know that immigration is deeply unpopular with some of their members. Why do they do this? Could it be because the construction workers unions are made up mostly of illegals?

Also, there is a misperception here that illegals are paid below minimum wage. This is by and large not true, at least in the cities. Construction pays very well, for instance.

	07-08-2002 01:29									#29
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"so why should I have to bother doing it the legal way?"

I'm talking about why you chose to immigrate legally and create such a hassle for yourself. I can't answer for your gullibility in assuming that this is the only way to do it.

But, hey, you did get a nice cushie government job because of your legal status, so it must have its compensations.

	07-08-2002 01:33									#30
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quote: Originally posted by DanS "so why should I have to bother doing it the legal way?" I'm talking about why you chose to immigrate legally and create such a hassle for yourself. I can't answer for your gullibility in assuming that this is the only way to do it. But, hey, you did get a nice cushie government job because of your legal status, so it must have its compensations.

What I am saying is that its unfair for me to have to go through all this because I am choosing to respect the laws of the USA. Surely you can see that its wrong to give lawbreakers a free ride.