06-08-2002 12:15									#1
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Had a situation the other day where I was at war Gandhi. We had no common border, so the Indians were coming through 3 other civs including Russia to get to the righteous Japanese. India had an MPP with Russia. I wiped his forces off my turf, which left 1 miserable inf unit just in Russian territory.
Usually no problem. If the Russians don't like it, they can get some. I'll take them on as well and use their territory to get to the Indians.
However the Russians had been long time trading partners and she was throwing 800+ gpt my way. I decided to leave the Indian inf unit alone.
My question is, would the Russians have declared war on me if I'd have killed that unit on Russian territory?

	06-08-2002 12:50									#2
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If you have good relations with the Russians, you could make a Right of Passage agreement with them. In this case, you can go or fight on their territory without any penalty. So if they don't have occasionally a Mutual Protection Pact with the Indians (which they shouldn't, according to your story), you can attack the Indian unit without the Russians even intervening.

If you don't want this, you still can violate the border of an AI civ with one military unit. The AI will ask you to leave, and you answer, you will. This way you can stay on Russian turf for a couple of turns, before the Russians force you to leave, and try to kill the Indian Infantry. But be aware, that in this case the relations beween Russia and you will be spoiled.

	06-08-2002 15:55									#3
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Sir Ralph, I think the question was more that in the event of killing the Indian unit inside the Russian territory, would it trigger the MPP with the Russians or not? I thought that killing a unit outside of their own territory does not trigger the MPP it has with other civs, but save, do it, and let me know if I was wrong

DeepO

	06-08-2002 17:20									#4
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Eek, right, for some reason I did ignore the fact of this MPP, and even thought there was none. I wasn't in the brightest shape this morning; have slept very bad, lots of gnats here.

	07-08-2002 03:53									#5
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Yes DeepO - there was an existing MPP.

Unfortunately I can't play test this anymore as this situation occurred a few days ago and I didn't think too much of it at the time so I didn't make a save game. Regret that now.

Ralph - did try to get Right of Passage with the Russians. Couldn't even bribe them for it.

	07-08-2002 04:00									#6
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Interesting question.

AFAIK, the MPP trigger is ONLY from attacking a pact member on their own territory.

Definitely a situation for all to watch out for though.

	07-08-2002 04:11									#7
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DeepO and I were having this discussion on another thread . . . I could've almost sworn that I'd seen MPP's triggered when an AI unit is attacked anywhere other than in your territory (i.e., an attack against an MPP'd AI unit in third party territory or neutral territory could trigger the AI's MPP), but most people seem to remember differently than me.

Anyone got an old saved game they could run for a few turns to test it out? I play on an older laptop with a very small hard drive - I tend to delete all my previous games just before I start a new one (although the compression in v1.21 was very helpful!) -- I have saves from "Give Peace a Chance" but that won't help . . .

Catt

	07-08-2002 04:15									#8
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Hmmm.. Catt, I haven't got around to test it either. I'm in the middle of MT V, and as you are not allowed to make peace there, there is no option to test it. I think I still have some older games laying around, but ATM I'm working on my avatar... the 500 post limit is very close.

I'll do it right after this, so normally it should be something for this night.

DeepO

	07-08-2002 05:30									#9
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Right. I just tested it, and the only possible way to trigger a MPP is getting attacked in your own territory. So in this example, there was no problem attacking the Indians in Russian space, this would not trigger the MPP the Russians and the Indians had...

Catt, I'll go find that other thread, and update it as well. There is one thing I was unable to test (as I didn't found a suitable example in my saves): I don't know if bombing a Indian unit in Russian territory is allowed. This might be seen as a act of war, as you are bombing Russian ground. But, normally you wouldn't hit it, so there shouldn't be a problem. But I'm positive that you can attack a unit in the MPPs partner empire without triggering the MPP.

DeepO

Last edited by DeepO on 07-08-2002 at 06:35

	07-08-2002 05:44									#10
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Thanks for checking when you could have been playing.

Catt

	07-08-2002 06:30									#11
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No problem... I wasn't planning on playing the MT V tonight, whenever I start that one I'm hooked till early in the morning... and it is 3.30 am already

DeepO

	07-08-2002 07:45									#12
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TY DeepO

You can bomb enemy units on neutral territory. Once the unit is bombed down 1hp a warning comes up saying that if you bomb that square again it might trigger a war with the neutral civ.

	07-08-2002 15:22									#13
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Aha... which is logical too. Thanks Col. Carnage!

DeepO