06-08-2002 15:08									#1
	What does Rifleman represent? Remove this text

What technological and tactical standard does an Rifleman unit represent?
Is it more along the lines off the units that fought in the American Civil War or War Of Independance?

	06-08-2002 15:42									#2
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He's dressed up like a civil war soldier.

	06-08-2002 15:45									#3
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I guess it would be civil war ery and the musketeer would be like the War of Independence. I do not find rifleman worth the trouble in this game because it's too close to the Infantry which is wayyyyy more powerful.

	06-08-2002 17:35									#4
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I'd have to agree that they represent the state of Infantry forces from the mid-to-late 1800's. Prior to the 1800's most weapons were flintlock (or other type) ignition, muzzle-loading, powder-wadding-ball style rifles. Percussion caps were invented in the early 1800's but weren't widely used until the mid 1800's. During the US Civil War (1861-1865) percussion cartridges were used, but the weapons were largely still muzzle-loaders and the “cartridges” tended to be paper rolls containing a premixed measure of powder, wadding and a .45 caliber ball. Modern metallic cartridges weren't used until the 1870's, and by the end of the century many of the modern rifles used in WWI and WWII had been designed and built (the German Mauser K-98 rifle used throughout WWII was designed in 1898).

True, Riflemen are rather quickly made obsolete in most games. But then again, the weapons they’re based on went obsolete pretty quickly too. Muzzle-loading muskets were used for almost 400 years before the first paper cartridge breech-loaders came about in the mid-1800s, and they were almost entirely replaced a mere 50 years later with newer metallic cartridge, bolt-action clip fed modern rifles. Still, they have a longer lifespan than piston-powered Fighters.

	06-08-2002 17:37									#5
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Riflemen can also be built without rubber.

	06-08-2002 17:49									#6
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I only build riflemen if I am playing as a scientific civ. I almost always go directly for Replaceable Parts once in the industrial age. Then I go for Electronics. Then Motorized Transportation.

	06-08-2002 18:14									#7
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Thanx

	06-08-2002 18:32									#8
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quote: Originally posted by WarpStorm Riflemen can also be built without rubber.

I've modded mine, you need Saltpeper and Iron. I've actually modded a lot of my unit, so that resources become even more important.

	06-08-2002 21:25									#9
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But... the whole point of the rifleman in civ is that you get a resource free unit! If you mod it to require saltpeter and iron, the only unit you can fall back on if a city is not connected is the warrior... which is hardly a match for tanks. At least the riflemen have some chance of defending a closed in city.

DeepO

	06-08-2002 22:00									#10
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO But... the whole point of the rifleman in civ is that you get a resource free unit! If you mod it to require saltpeter and iron, the only unit you can fall back on if a city is not connected is the warrior... which is hardly a match for tanks. At least the riflemen have some chance of defending a closed in city. DeepO

But tanks will tremble if you defend your city with a speaman . Must be those spearheads wedging in the gears or something.

	06-08-2002 22:27									#11
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO But... the whole point of the rifleman in civ is that you get a resource free unit! If you mod it to require saltpeter and iron, the only unit you can fall back on if a city is not connected is the warrior... which is hardly a match for tanks. At least the riflemen have some chance of defending a closed in city. DeepO

True enough in purely balanced terms. But isn't it a bit silly, when thinking outside the Civ 'box', that "saltpeter has become so abundant" that it isn't an issue with Riflemen, yet you still need it for Cavelry?

I've made Riflemen dependant upon Saltpeter, though not Iron as Pioneer has done.

	06-08-2002 22:35									#12
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Outside of the civ box? No... nowadays saltpeter is indeed still won from mines, but it is perfectly possible to make it yourself. All you need is Nitrogen from the air, and some kind of pressurised acid. I won't comment on if this procedure was known around the US civil war (probably not), but you don't need saltpeter anymore for infantry, and the basis of their explosives would also be a nitrogenous compound. Maybe it's not perfectly historically accurate, but it's not much wrong either...

DeepO

	06-08-2002 23:20									#13
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About the Saltpeter issue:

This is why you should be able to make buildings that produce resources!

Then Riflemen could still require Saltpeter, and there would be a Nitrate Factory that produced all the Saltpeter your civ would ever need!

Same with Horses - if you buy Horses from another civ, you should be able to build a Stud Farm to produce your own horses.

	06-08-2002 23:54									#14
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No, I don't agree. I mean, it's a nice idea to have buildings that can make resources (which would work for horses, saltpeter, rubber, but not for the others), but the whole point of the rifleman is that it requires no resources at all. If you have one city, completely surrounded by hostile territory, you are still able to draft some rifleman in there. It might not be historically accurate, but it is a much needed thing when you're in an underdog position.

The same when in the middle of a war: the enemy may take all your resources by either bombardment or conquering, and you still have the possibility to keep your ground with the riflemen. This game mechanic should not be abandonned, if only to keep some options open for the AI when you're too good for them. On the contrary, I fully agree with Vel, in that each era should get such a resource free unit, instead of only the industrial rifleman and the ancient spearman.

DeepO

	07-08-2002 00:27									#15
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Maybe you could have a Militia unit that requires no resources.

	07-08-2002 01:26									#16
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In my opinion, the Riflemen in Civ III Represents the Civil War years and the introduction to riffled guns and Breachloading rifles. The French Musketmen represents the Musketeer in the 30 Years War. While the Musketmen represents the Arquebus and the introduction of firearms. The Infantry unit represents a trooper during World War I and the indroduction of Ammo Clips.

	07-08-2002 01:37									#17
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The Rifleman if you look closely represents b nineteenth century armies in general, the Prussian infantry looked similair to this in the Austro-Prussian war.

	07-08-2002 06:22									#18
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When I was testing the limits of the combat engine in this game, I found that not until Rfileman, was my 200/200 attack/defense test unit was killed, and in fact killed by more Rifleman then any other. I think there is a little extra code in the game for them somehow.

	07-08-2002 10:11									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Civfan01 In my opinion, the Riflemen in Civ III Represents the Civil War years and the introduction to riffled guns and Breachloading rifles.

Yes, in theory. Riflemen also should never be defeated by cavalry alone.

quote: The French Musketmen represents the Musketeer in the 30 Years War. While the Musketmen represents the Arquebus and the introduction of firearms. The Infantry unit represents a trooper during World War I and the indroduction of Ammo Clips.

Huh? There is no French mkusketman; it is the musketeer.

In my mod we have TWO TYPES: the basic with the slow, heavy arquebus, and the latter more powerful and more offensive version with a lighter gun and armed with the bayonet. Firaxis doesn't bother to do this as they don't care about realism.

	07-08-2002 10:45									#20
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Well, I see your point DeepO but still I've done it in order to make resources much more valuable. I am not much interested in the historical or real life accuracy but more on why get a "free unit", it makes it easy for those that had no luck to find strategic resources up to the point but I do not see why!? If the AI or me had the bad luck not to have Saltpeper (I've also increased the Appearance Ratio by 10) we will have to fight/scout/trade for one.

If at some point it proves to be unbalancing my game I will mod back though.

So long....

	07-08-2002 15:32									#21
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Well, maybe you've done it already, but wouldn't a better idea be that you set resource requirements for buildings? It may not be the most realistic thing, but you could mod all power plants to require saltpeter for instance. I don't care much that it would be unrealistic the riflemen don't require saltpeter, but I think there should be a unit that doesn't require anything. It's purely a gameplay issue...

DeepO

	10-08-2002 20:32									#22
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Shouldn't the Rifleman icon have a bayonet, too?

	11-08-2002 01:11									#23
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The fact is that starting in the Civil War, the bayonet gained very little usage. Sure every soldier had one but it was very rarely actualy used, for historical accuracy sure they should have one but for actual effectiveness the bayonet realy fell by the wayside starting in the 1800s.

	11-08-2002 02:35									#24
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That's right. As soon as the firing speed of handguns increased, the chance for enemy cavalry to reach the infantry lines decreased. The better rifles, the less use for bayonets.

We should decide what weapons should be represented in Civ, and the relative difference in strength between them.