07-08-2002 00:58									#31
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Q, still waiting for that explanation on how Karma somehow works within the framework of artificial human constructs like nationalities.

If you haven't committed a crime, you don't deserve to be punished for one, plain and simple. You can't hold Hiroshima citizens responsible for what happened in Nanking, only those who ordered it and those who participated in it.

	07-08-2002 01:02									#32
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quote: The Japanese Imperial Army in WWII recruited military prostitutes from Korea. In order to justify the expense, the "women" (girls as young as twelve) were stripped of their ideels serviced up to 250,000 men per month (Bailey 54). Each woman, therefore, had a quota of servicing100 men per day (each man was allotted only three minutes) (60). And, when they tried to raise the price of the three minutes from $3 to $5, the head of the Military Police reprimanded the prostitutes, saying, "the price of meat is still $3."

http://www.u.arizona.edu/~kari/rosie.htm

	07-08-2002 01:10									#33
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quote: Q, still waiting for that explanation on how Karma somehow works within the framework of artificial human constructs like nationalities. If you haven't committed a crime, you don't deserve to be punished for one, plain and simple. You can't hold Hiroshima citizens responsible for what happened in Nanking, only those who ordered it and those who participated in it.

the japanese people as a whole were no different from the germans.
in other words, i think the german people are just as guilty of the holocaust as the SS and Hitler, simply because they chose to ignore it, and live without so much as a second thought to the gassing of millions.
the japanese too ignored what was going on in korea. koreans were shipped to japan as slave labor for everything from hazardous construction to the flesh trade. and yet, the japanese people, caught up in the fervor of imperialism, did not care. indeed, the majority of them still don't think they did anything wrong in asia.

passivity or acceptance of such brutal measures is, in this case, as close to abetting it. they are guilty of that.

again, let me make this clear-- i don't think those poor souls in hiroshima deserved it individually. but as a whole, the japanese people did.

why does it apply to nationalities? many things.
religiously, you'll find scores of examples where the sins of the fathers have punishments bestowed upon the children. the fathers being the emperor and minister tojo, the children being the people.
socially, all throughout east asia, specifically the pacific rim, the concept of "i" is quite different. one says "our aunt" for "my aunt"... "our school" for "my school"... "our mom" for "my mom". the people of japan and korea see tend to themselves as a unified whole, a big individual, thanks to their homogeniety. and thus, one ill done to a single person is done to the many.

this is not, i'll admit, the strictest definition of karma. and it's a pity that those single individuals suffered like that in hiroshima. but the people of japan, for their complicity and acceptance of the heinous war crimes of japan in the name of "advancing" and "modernizing" aisa... they were just as guilty as the leaders.

	07-08-2002 02:15									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Simon Darkshade One is of the view that the Emperor should not have been allowed to come out smelling of innocent roses, but it is a moot point, as it was realpolitik. (Whilst it is not an apt or fair comparison, one just feels like slipping in the devil's advocate question of "What if Germany offered unconditional surrender in early 1945 with the only condition being the survival of the Fuhrer?". Different situation, but it holds that the survival of the Emperor was not a negotiated condition, but rather something that the Allies gave to the Japanese in a gesture of magnamity.)

I don't recall if Germany has anything like the tale of the 47 Ronin....

	07-08-2002 02:38									#35
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100 per day, 3 minutes apiece. That really sucks, in too many ways. And I though one every 8.5 minutes was an exageration. Ouch. Monsters.

	07-08-2002 03:14									#36
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I agree with Boreus on many instances.

You guys are warmongers.

	07-08-2002 03:20									#37
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The bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki saved millions of lives. If the US really wanted to kill Japanese, we can just keep firebombing their cities, blockading all their food supplies, and finally invading their beaches. The death toll could easily go into tens of millions.

	07-08-2002 03:29									#38
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bull crap. they saved soldier lives but cost civilian lives.

after what I have read of you guys in other threads, soldiers weren't even human (may I remind of how 'fair game' it is to shoot soldiers that can't defend themselves because of being on a train, a boat, etc.?)

	07-08-2002 04:11									#39
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quote: You can't hold Hiroshima citizens responsible for what happened in Nanking, only those who ordered it and those who participated in it.

And the citizens were part of the regime that did it, no? They didn't protest much, IIRC.

quote: they saved soldier lives but cost civilian lives.

Cost JAPANESE civilian lives... saved US soldiers lives. If you are the US, the lives of your soliders is more important that the lives of Japanese civilians.

Truman did the right thing.

	07-08-2002 04:16									#40
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I'm shocked, Imran

	07-08-2002 04:42									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion bull crap. they saved soldier lives but cost civilian lives.

Maybe what you are saying is bull$hit. Japanese agriculture was not self sufficient and depended on its merchant marines. But since the US shut down Japanese naval transports completely, the resulting famine in the winter of 45/46 would have killed millions due to starvation.

Second, the firebombing of Japanese cities would have continued. Do you know that in a single attack on Tokyo in July 45 more civilians were killed than Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined?

Third, should the US invasion ever come, the resulting street to street fightings would probably make every Japanese city a new Stalingrad. Tarawa, Iwo Jima, and Okinawa already proved what things Japanese could pull.

Save soldier's lives but cost civilian lives?! Bah! Get yourself some facts together before spewing out comments based on hate against Americans.

	07-08-2002 04:43									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion I'm shocked, Imran

Don't be .

	07-08-2002 04:43									#43
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ah, you saved millions of japanese civilian lives by dropping an atom bomb, how ironic

	07-08-2002 04:53									#44
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A link to some revisionist historian bullshit

http://free.freespeech.org/american...maNagasaki.html

Spit away, DV

	07-08-2002 05:18									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion ah, you saved millions of japanese civilian lives by dropping an atom bomb, how ironic

Well, the alternative was to walk away and leave those in power who had massacred Nanking, bombed Chinese cities with tons of Anthrax, enslaved millions of Koreans in sweat shops, forced thousands of women as military prostitutes, and fooled millions of their own people into certain deaths.

The 2 Atomic Bombs made up the lowest cost for removing one of the most hideous regime in world history.

	07-08-2002 06:04									#46
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quote: Boris that is your opinion but this is the one I hold. Truman in my opinion did not have a choice.

Aaaaah Bald Assertion Man at his finest, he wafts above the need to back up any of his statements like a cool breeze blowing away the mists of rational arguement.

quote: those things ALONE make it so that the Japanese deserved some sort of karmic punishment.

I suppose the Russian civilians deserved all the horror they went through in WW II becuase of Stalin's crimes as well then

quote: Different situation, but it holds that the survival of the Emperor was not a negotiated condition, but rather something that the Allies gave to the Japanese in a gesture of magnamity

Real sickening piece of Machiavellianism if this was the case...

quote: the outrage by the Americans over the Lusitania disaster in 1915? Certainly that should have been expected as just a part of war.

Especially since it WAS transporting war material to the allies.

quote: because they were both extremely important nodes (and production centers) for the Army and Navy of the Imperial Japanese Forces.

Really? I thought the main criterion was that they were one of the few cities that hadn't already been pretty thorougly bombed, but then my grasp of WW II history isn't the best.

	07-08-2002 06:40									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed i didn't say those civilians deserved it per se. i said the japanese people as a whole deserved it through karma. i think that the horrors of the atomic weapons could have been avoided-- but the fact that they weren't is something that we have to deal with. how can you punish the tens of thousands of troops who occupied korea and nanking? the logistics of it all are mindboggling. i'm not denying that the hiroshima and nagasaki were appalling. all i'm saying is that they don't deserve as much pity and grief as they seem to want. neither am i exculpating the americans for using those bombs. their moral advantage from germany was lost on those two days. but that doesn't change the fact that japan as a nation did deserve such treatment.

Actually the Japanese Millitary deserved it. The Japanese people were lie to so much, they really did not know what was going on.

	07-08-2002 06:52									#48
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I will remember Pearl Harbor instead.

	07-08-2002 07:20									#49
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quote: Originally posted by rah If you include a meage 6 hours of sleep and and hour to eat/hygene per day, that works out to a new man every 8.5 minutes. Somehow, I think that's a bit of an exageration. Rich

In Hawaii the whole fleet was served by about 200 prostitutes. The time was three minutes. Three dollars for three minutes. The girls made a lot of money as they were not slaves and it can't be compared to the comfort girl victims. I mention it only to show that it may not be an exaggeration considering what the pros did willingly in Hawaii.

One of the various war-history-testosterone channels covered the Hawaiin situation in a one hour show last month. I think it was the History Channel but they run together for me.

	07-08-2002 07:24									#50
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There was no reason why the US should've insisted on an unconditional surrender in the removal of the Emperor (and then giving him back his title ). An example of killing a couple hundred thousand people over pride.

To achieve unconditional surrender, the US should've had a demonstration, with Japanese observers, of an atomic bomb. It's hard to imagine that the Japanese would continue fighting afterwards.

	07-08-2002 07:24									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed http://www.u.arizona.edu/~kari/rosie.htm

That was what I just talked about EXCEPT you managed to make it look like they were talking about Japan. That was Hawaii. US Navy and all. The girls weren't slaves there.

	07-08-2002 07:31									#52
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I just took another look at that site. Its not your fault Q Cubed except that you didn't look close enough. It looks to be a typo. See the paragraph right below the one you posted.

quote: The Japanese Imperial Army in WWII recruited military prostitutes from Korea. In order to justify the expense, the "women" (girls as young as twelve) were stripped of their ideels serviced up to 250,000 men per month (Bailey 54). Each woman, therefore, had a quota of servicing100 men per day (each man was allotted only three minutes) (60). And, when they tried to raise the price of the three minutes from $3 to $5, the head of the Military Police reprimanded the prostitutes, saying, "the price of meat is still $3." The risk of sexually transmitted disease was extremely high for Hawaiian prostitutes. ("in 1943, 120 prostitutes were hospitalized 166 times for a contagious venels serviced up to 250,000 men per month (Bailey 54). Each woman, therefore, had a quota of servicing100 men per day (each man was allotted only three minutes) (60). And, when they tried to raise the price of the three minutes from $3 to $5, the head of the Military Police reprimanded the prostitutes, saying, "the price of meat is still $3."

Take a look at the second half of each paragraph. They are identical. Someone goofed. The $3 part should have made you look twice though. The Japanes Imerial Army using dollars? I don't think so. That was price in Hawaii. The quote is from Hawaii as well.

	07-08-2002 08:09									#53
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hm... that is true. but no doubt, tomorrow when i have fast inet again, i'll find different sources. most of the sites i visited which did not give stats on time length and who to service, almost all invariably said that the asian comfort women were not paid anything at all at first.

	07-08-2002 08:18									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov 57 years ago, the city of Hiroshima was hit by the only use of an atomic weapon against an enemy target in history. Over 220,000 deaths are attributed to the dropping of the atomic bomb on the city and its aftermath

The people of Nagasaki might disagree.

	07-08-2002 08:43									#55
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I'm with Ramo on this, the first should have been a demonstration somewhere away from a large civilian city from which the high command could have been given an ultimatum...

If they failed to comply THEN bomb something bigger...

Also, IIRC the Japanese weren't given enough time between the first and second bombs to surrender, such was the state of their communications.

Also Q Cubed, the Japanese civilians on the most part knew nothing of what was going on except the propaganda that they were being continuously fed about the 'US aggressors' etc. The 'government' was effectively a military coup orchestrated by the likes of Tojo and his cronies...

This bullsh*t about the civilians not stopping what was happening is wrong on so many levels, not level because of Japanese 'etiquette' and social values - but also because they would have been killed.

The bombs were not necessary, maybe as a show of force - but nothing more!

	07-08-2002 08:48									#56
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quote: Originally posted by MOBIUS maybe as a show of force - but nothing more!

What do you call firebombing thier cities? A love tap.

	07-08-2002 08:49									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov 57 years ago, the city of Hiroshima was hit by the only use of an atomic weapon against an enemy target in history. Over 220,000 deaths are attributed to the dropping of the atomic bomb on the city and its aftermath.

Compared to the 20 million casualties in China alone that is peanuts. The IJA also caused lots of direct and indirect deaths in Korea and other occupied areas. Remember the Bridge over River Kwai?

Not that the event itself is not a tragedy, but it must be considered in context.

I am with Q Cubed. The only bad thing about this is innocents were killed yet the guilty escaped unscathed. Hirohito is who I am referring.

To me it is a travesty of justice that somehow Japan is pretending to be a victim.

quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov "...the Japanese were ready to surrender and it wasn't necessary to hit them with that awful thing." - Dwight D. Eisenhower, "Ike on Ike," Newsweek, 11/11/63

I am not sure about that. IIRC, the US prepared Operation Olympus and Operation Crown for the invasion of of Japan itself. The estimated casualties run in the millions for the US military alone. There would be several times more on the Japanese side, from all the firebombings, blockades, and what have you.

	07-08-2002 08:51									#58
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At leastthe bombings ended up accomplishing something. The bombings of German cities earlier on had similar death tolls but fewer results...

	07-08-2002 08:52									#59
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quote: The estimated casualties run in the millions for the US military alone

That figure is wildly inflated.

	07-08-2002 08:55									#60
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quote: Also Q Cubed, the Japanese civilians on the most part knew nothing of what was going on except the propaganda that they were being continuously fed about the 'US aggressors' etc. The 'government' was effectively a military coup orchestrated by the likes of Tojo and his cronies... This bullsh*t about the civilians not stopping what was happening is wrong on so many levels, not level because of Japanese 'etiquette' and social values - but also because they would have been killed.

that claim holds about as much credit as the notion that the germans did not have at least some notion that there was a holocaust going on.

why? if you look all throughout history, you'll see there is no love lost between japan and korea. indeed, the occupation of korea was greeted with much rejoicing in japan, and no doubt a lot of the japanese attitudes at the time were that of korean inferiority. korean laborers in japan were often given cruel treatment--and often in civilian centers. and yet you expect me to believe that the japanese had no inkling of what was going on?

i can buy the fact that maybe the japanese populace didn't know the true extent of the horrors. but if you expect me to believe that the japanese were completely ignorant of what was going on...