07-08-2002 08:59									#61
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quote: Originally posted by MOBIUS Also Q Cubed, the Japanese civilians on the most part knew nothing of what was going on except the propaganda that they were being continuously fed about the 'US aggressors' etc.

That is so wrong I don't even know where to begin correcting it.

The general population did not know the whole story, true, but they did know about the occupation of Korea, the invasion of Nanjing, etc. And they thought those were good things. Many Japanese thought they were superior to other Asian peoples. A number of them still do today.

quote: Originally posted by MOBIUS The 'government' was effectively a military coup orchestrated by the likes of Tojo and his cronies...

That is untrue also. All this invasion and occupation stuff was planned long before Tojo came into power. Hirohito himself had to share the responsibilities.

quote: Originally posted by MOBIUS This bullsh*t about the civilians not stopping what was happening is wrong on so many levels, not level because of Japanese 'etiquette' and social values - but also because they would have been killed.

They were supportive of the invasions dammit! Do you have a clue of what was going on?

quote: Originally posted by MOBIUS The bombs were not necessary, maybe as a show of force - but nothing more!

Again untrue. The Japanese prepared "total defense." They even planned on moving to Korea if Japanese fell to the Allies.

	07-08-2002 09:01									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger quote: The estimated casualties run in the millions for the US military alone That figure is wildly inflated.

Possibly, but the figure has been consistent in the various sources. Then again maybe they all got that from the same place, I can't tell.

	07-08-2002 09:06									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed almost all invariably said that the asian comfort women were not paid anything at all at first.

I rather suspect that was the case.

The site you posted was Rosie the Riveteer site. So it would tend to be about the sort of work women did in America during WWII. In Hawaii a number of women worked at getting rivetted so I guess that could go under Rosie the Riveteer.

	07-08-2002 09:07									#64
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So many experts here 50+ years after the fact.

	07-08-2002 09:10									#65
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So many American apoligists, 50+ years after the fact...

	07-08-2002 09:14									#66
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"That figure is wildly inflated."

We had what we thought was a very clear measure of the Japanese at the time. Whether or not that figure was wildly inflated or not says little about its use as justification.

Last edited by DanS on 07-08-2002 at 09:22

	07-08-2002 09:15									#67
	Remembering Hiroshima.. Remove this text

umm...no. I dont give a flaming bobcat ******* about the city or its people.




I love how every statwh0re, queerboy, and freckled face loser come here and waste there time physco-analzying every little historical detail about my country history.


grow up and get a life. fight over somthing else

If you were as smart as you say you would be out doing somthing else.

	07-08-2002 09:15									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger So many American apoligists, 50+ years after the fact...

Do you notice that our Asian posters approve the Bombs by the most?

	07-08-2002 09:16									#69
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Like I said before, if we really wanted to kill Japanese, we should not have dropped the Bombs, but should have proceeded with the invasion.

	07-08-2002 09:18									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger So many American apoligists, 50+ years after the fact...

How quaint


There are no apologies. We did what we did. It was no worse then what we did to Hamburg or Dresdan or Tokyo.

	07-08-2002 09:18									#71
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do you also realize that few asians really like the japanese as a whole, while perhaps liking individual japanese people?

	07-08-2002 09:35									#72
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quote: Originally posted by DanS "That figure is wildly inflated." We had what we thought was a very clear measure of the Japanese at the time. Whether or not that figure was wildly inflated or not says little about its use as justification.

IIRC, the actual number used in reports of the time was lower than some more recent "estimates" that have come out as justification. The original ones were in the neighbourhood of 150-200 000, IIRC.

	07-08-2002 09:38									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber How quaint There are no apologies. We did what we did. It was no worse then what we did to Hamburg or Dresdan or Tokyo.

That's correct, and none of those actions were right either, but they were understandable (especially given what the world had seen happen to London, etc.)

Like I said (either here or in the other thread: at least the nuclear bombs accomplished something tangible; earlier "strategic bombing" had very little effect on the course of the war...

	07-08-2002 09:40									#74
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"The original ones were in the neighbourhood of 150-200 000, IIRC."

This doesn't make sense at all. Okinawa had 50,000 U.S. casualties and about 200K Japanese dead, including 100K civilians.

	07-08-2002 09:42									#75
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I was referring only to US casualties.

	07-08-2002 09:45									#76
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Okinawa sucked up a lot of the available Japanese manpower. They were really getting to the bottom of the barrel at that point, and the more women and children with spears you start throwing at the wide-eyes, the higher the kill ratio goes in the US' favour...

	07-08-2002 09:46									#77
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Well, even that doesn't make any sense, based on our experience at Okinawa. A 150K-200K number would seem to have been the best case scenario based on our recent experience.

	07-08-2002 09:52									#78
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Dan, the Japanese had thrown a lot of what they had left into Okinawa. They lost 7800 planes, for instance, and God knows how many rifles, artillery pieces, etc. They couldn't keep up, and there's no way to kill hundreds of thousnds of combat troops with bamboo sticks, no matter how many volunteers you get.

	07-08-2002 10:06									#79
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I'm gonna have to ask for a cite on this one, Frogger.

	07-08-2002 11:35									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Zkribbler Truman did the right thing.

... when he died.

	07-08-2002 14:30									#81
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quote: ... when he died.

Eventually. After a many more years as President. And a long time in retirement.

You are thinking of Roosevelt and he wasn't alive when the Bomb was ready to go.

Truman didn't even know about the project untill after Roosevelt died. To most of the men involved it was just another weapon. An effing big one. The idea of thinking of it as a horror weapon came later. Blaming those men is 20-20 hindsight and little else.

Whatever the number of expected casualities in an invasion why should the US take any when it could stop the war with a bomb or two? Tens of thousands of Allies would have died. For certain. Every single POW as I allready mentioned. Japan still had rifles and thats enough to kill tens of thousands more of any invaders at the least.

	07-08-2002 14:39									#82
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AGGRAVATION: Killing tens of thousands of soldiers is worse than killing tens of thousands of civillians?
IMHO poor thinking.

Soldiers are made to be killed - Napoleon (and see what happened to him )

	07-08-2002 14:40									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger Okinawa sucked up a lot of the available Japanese manpower. They were really getting to the bottom of the barrel at that point, and the more women and children with spears you start throwing at the wide-eyes, the higher the kill ratio goes in the US' favour...

It also was the battle where the U.S. Navy took it's greatest losses in it's history. The closer we moved to Japan the more intense the defenses were and the lower our kill ratio on land and sea became. Remember that while there was some doubt about Japanese dispositions and capabilities, our own casualties were obvious. Okinawa was considered Japanese territory by the Japanese, and the Japanese Army was very successful in dragging the civilian population into the conflict, to the detriment of both the U.S. forces and that civilian population especially. It was a very easy case to make at the time that an invasion of the home islands was going to be full of suicide weapons, fanatical defenses and urban warfare, just like on Okinawa except over a much larger area with much higher population.

If you want to say that the U.S. should have known that the Japanese were ready to fold completely, then you should also acknowledge that if we had foregone the atom bombs and the Japanese had delayed their surrender at all, more Japanese, Koreans, Chinese, Vietnamese etc. would have starved to death while allied transports were tied up with war time traffic rather than switching over to emergency food deliveries. A million Japanese civilians starved to death in the year after the war ended as it was.

	07-08-2002 14:59									#84
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You guys might want to check out

http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/...,769634,00.html


Basically it's an interview between Studs Terkel and Paul Tibbets (pilot of the Enola Gay).

	07-08-2002 15:03									#85
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So we all agree America was wrong in using the bomb. Wonderful.

	07-08-2002 17:58									#86
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not necesssarily. i agree that it was wrong, but i also think it was deserved.

	07-08-2002 18:09									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion So we all agree America was wrong in using the bomb. Wonderful.

What, pray tell, is the right choice?

In a happy world, there wouldn't have been a hiroshima. But there wouldn't have been a rape of nanking, or a holocaust, or a dresden. An invasion of Japan would've left the world with a divided japan, millions more japanese dead, and hundreds of thousands of american casualties.

What would you have done?

	07-08-2002 18:19									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed not necesssarily. i agree that it was wrong, BUT I ALSO THINK IT WAS DESERVED.

You know, having relatives on BOTH f***ing ends (receiving and giving) I find this last part of the statement FULLY INSULTING. I'm mean, I'm freeking raging.

I have family members that were part of the invasion force (Japanese) and family that were dodging the Nihongin's bombs and bullets while they were strafing the streets in Hawaii.

Ok, how about this....why don't I drop an atomic bomb on your ENTIRE families @**, watch them burn, then say "Oh, that sucks.....but hey, you deserved it." HUH?!

I have relatives WHO DIED AT HIROSHIMA because of an American president's decision to drop an atom bomb on a CIVILIAN POPULATION CENTER instead of Tokyo Bay, where the blast could still be seen and no lives would have been lost.

Now, if your thinking that I am against America, you are wrong! I had family members who went to Pearl Harbor to save their comrades lives, but they were military personnel. All my family members I have talked to say that even though the attack was unprovoked, they were military, not civilian. I've seen pictures of CHILDREN baked because of the blast.

Can any of you say that you've had family members hit by an atomic bomb blast?! (I'm sorry, I'm soooo mad right now I could rip apart my damn computer...but I won't) My point is, until you've actually seen or experienced something, don't say it was deserved.

	07-08-2002 18:31									#89
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quote: Originally posted by frankychan I have relatives WHO DIED AT HIROSHIMA because of an American president's decision to drop an atom bomb on a CIVILIAN POPULATION CENTER instead of Tokyo Bay, where the blast could still be seen and no lives would have been lost.

That is about the worst place to set off an atomic bomb. Splatter all of the area with radioctive water and steam. Thats a great idea. Just how many did you intend to kill by radiation poisoning.

	07-08-2002 18:36									#90
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Excuse me....OUTSIDE of Tokyo Bay. The explosion alone would have caught the eye of Emperor Hirohito and the military.

BTW, have you seen survivors from a ground-zero detonation? I have in pictures and I'll tell you, when you realize that some of them are family members, you wanna kick someones @**. When you see the survivors skin's blackened and charred, you'll know what I'm talking about.