06-08-2002 22:46									#1
	Treaty breaker? Who? Me?!?! Remove this text

I just played my first native 1.29f game last weekend on a huge map, regent level. As usual, I was the goody-two-shoes who would never renege on his word and avoided picking fights with anyone when I could help it. I was winning anyway.

Here comes my ancestral ennemy, Xerxes, the only one who could match me in power. I call on Gandhi for a trade embargo and he calls me a treaty breaker! The only remotely plausible explanation I might have for this is that in a previous war against Persia, I got Babylon to ally with me, but I signed peace with Xerxes myself a few turns later. Could that be it? If so, is there no honorable way out of this war until the 20 turns are over?

	06-08-2002 22:57									#2
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Did you enter into a military alliance then back out of the war before 20 years were up? FYI those things last 20 yeras.

	06-08-2002 23:27									#3
	Re: Treaty breaker? Who? Me?!?! Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Harfang The only remotely plausible explanation I might have for this is that in a previous war against Persia, I got Babylon to ally with me, but I signed peace with Xerxes myself a few turns later. Could that be it? If so, is there no honorable way out of this war until the 20 turns are over?

That's exactly the problem. And there is no honorable way out of a war until your 20 turns are up.

	07-08-2002 01:08									#4
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quote: Originally posted by ACooper That's exactly the problem. And there is no honorable way out of a war until your 20 turns are up.

Umm... just thinking of... what if your ally signs peace even earlier than you? I.e., if he's the first one to break the allaince. I know this is not a "honorable way", since you can't make it happen, but I would be insterested to know if/how your reputation gets affected...

	07-08-2002 01:40									#5
	Re: Re: Re: Treaty breaker? Who? Me?!?! Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by vondrack Umm... just thinking of... what if your ally signs peace even earlier than you? I.e., if he's the first one to break the allaince. I know this is not a "honorable way", since you can't make it happen, but I would be insterested to know if/how your reputation gets affected...

I would say that after the other civ breaks the treaty, you can sign peace whenever you choose. The alliance has already been dissolved, so you won't be breaking a treaty.

	07-08-2002 09:37									#6
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quote: Originally posted by dunk I would say that after the other civ breaks the treaty, you can sign peace whenever you choose. The alliance has already been dissolved, so you won't be breaking a treaty.

This is my understanding also.

	07-08-2002 11:41									#7
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Ok, let's say that I traded my wines with the AI but before the 20 turns are up I get attacked by a third Civ or barbarians who deny me access to the wines. Surely the AI's should understand that it was not my fault, right? Anybody ever noticed what the reaction is if you get yourself in such a predicament?

So long...

	07-08-2002 21:08									#8
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quote: Originally posted by The Pioneer Ok, let's say that I traded my wines with the AI but before the 20 turns are up I get attacked by a third Civ or barbarians who deny me access to the wines. Surely the AI's should understand that it was not my fault, right? Anybody ever noticed what the reaction is if you get yourself in such a predicament? So long...

In that situation you are a deal breaker. Yes, it sucks.

Here's a better one.
I am trading iron to the Chinese. The Persians and Chinese are at war. The Persians destroy the Chinese 12 turns into my iron deal. I try to make another deal down the road and my reputation is trashed for 'breaking' my trade deal to the Chinese!!

What a bunch of crap.

	08-08-2002 00:41									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Matt_G In that situation you are a deal breaker. Yes, it sucks. Here's a better one. I am trading iron to the Chinese. The Persians and Chinese are at war. The Persians destroy the Chinese 12 turns into my iron deal. I try to make another deal down the road and my reputation is trashed for 'breaking' my trade deal to the Chinese!! What a bunch of crap.

The first situation of not delivering promised goods is the correct result. It is not the bank's fault you lost your job and can't pay the bill, or that you thought your brother-in-law was going to come up with those valuable spices for resale, but you already spent the money.

The second situation is a bug.

	08-08-2002 01:33									#10
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I have encountered the second situation. It sucked. I tried to prop up the Chinese agains the Persians, giving them iron, horses, and luxuries. This failed to save them, and Persia wiped them out. Now I can't make a lot of trades I was making before. I'm not gonna finish that game anyway, but that's a bug that has to be dealt with.

-Arrian

	08-08-2002 02:17									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian I have encountered the second situation. It sucked. I tried to prop up the Chinese agains the Persians, giving them iron, horses, and luxuries. This failed to save them, and Persia wiped them out. Now I can't make a lot of trades I was making before. I'm not gonna finish that game anyway, but that's a bug that has to be dealt with. -Arrian

That must be a bug. I prop up dying Civs quite often and never have the problem. I have no doubt that you guys have seen it, and hopefully it will be resolved in a patch soon.

On the issue of non-performance of a contract, I would suggest strongly fortifying any resources that you have promised to another Civ. Security is your prime responsibility.

	08-08-2002 02:59									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Zachriel The first situation of not delivering promised goods is the correct result. It is not the bank's fault you lost your job and can't pay the bill, or that you thought your brother-in-law was going to come up with those valuable spices for resale, but you already spent the money.

Agreed.

I believe you're right about the second one being a bug. It really blows when it happens.
Another thing I've noticed about the second situation I talked about. It only seems to happen if it's a strategic resource you're trading. Hasn't happened to me with a lux.
Arrian, does this jive with what you've seen??

	08-08-2002 05:21									#13
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In my current game none of the civs will do an ouright cash buy of luxuries or resources from me anymore. The reason for this is that I made a Furs for 150 gold deal with France, with Japan connecting the trade routes in between us. When France obliterated all of the Japanese roads connecting the Japanese to the French (and therefore my trade network as well), the deal was "broken". And I got the blame.

So while I can still do 30+ gpt for Furs etc with other civs, if I add a single gold to the deal "they will NEVER accept such a deal".

Personally, I think that on a trade network break that cancels a deal, there should be a quick check involved. If the person recieving the goods is responsible for the breakup of the trade network, then they should get the blame.

If it's a neutral third party, fine, you din't protect your trade network well enough.

Anyone know if war breaks up the trade network? For example, if the civs are laid out:

A B C

on a land mass, and B declares war on A, does that disrupt C's connection to A? Or more importantly, does it disrupt A's connection to C if A delares war on B? This is relavent, because if C owes A goods, then C gets the blame for "deal-breaking" if A declares war on B (if true).

	08-08-2002 06:19									#14
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I ended up in a strange situation in one game where only ONE civ would trade mixed gold/gpt deals with me, and that was the civ which DID break the original deal with me, so THAT civ knew I wasn't to blame and would continue to trade, but all the other civs just knew I'd broken the deal and wouldn't trade anymore.
Or atleast I *think* that's what happened.
Bizzare, anyway.

	08-08-2002 08:45									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Harfang . . . I call on Gandhi for a trade embargo and he calls me a treaty breaker! . . .

Let's go over this yet again.

The AI cheats. One of the ways it does this is to get one civ to launch a suicide attack on the human allowing its brother civs to forge ahead. It also cheats by blaming the human for THINGS HE NEVER DID, and then never forgetting it.

I got sick long ago of being blamed for stuff I did NOT do, and then having some civ over a thousand years later on another continent insult me for "my perfidy" or some other bullbleep towards a civ that has been extinct for 800 years. The stupid civ then won't trade with me even thouygh I am offering him fabulously good deals.

Example:

For no reason the smaller Romans on the other side of the continent declared war on me. I said FOR NO REASON.

The Romans then took a score of turns to march across the continent and attack MY FORTRESSES. They lost, and then sent another pathetic annoying force. They lost again. Ten turns later they asked for peace. Yea, whatever. Go away.

Over a thousand years later I find out that civs on another continent HATE ME because "the Romans told us of your perfidy" - good trick since the Aztecs exterminated the Romans 200 years after they made peace with me.

So this is just another lame AI cheat to try to compensate for a dumb AI.

	08-08-2002 08:49									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Blake I ended up in a strange situation in one game where only ONE civ would trade mixed gold/gpt deals with me, and that was the civ which DID break the original deal with me, so THAT civ knew I wasn't to blame and would continue to trade, but all the other civs just knew I'd broken the deal and wouldn't trade anymore. Or atleast I *think* that's what happened. Bizzare, anyway.

So, you understand now the AI is not only stupid but it also cheats? I hope so.

It goes beyond bizarre; it is immensely frustrating and helps kill all the fun of playing the game.

	08-08-2002 10:43									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Zachriel The first situation of not delivering promised goods is the correct result. It is not the bank's fault you lost your job and can't pay the bill, or that you thought your brother-in-law was going to come up with those valuable spices for resale, but you already spent the money.

It actually has never happened to me. Since I'd destroy anybody that gets close to my resources .

But I do not agree with you and since you drew an ovesrimplified example from real life I'll give you another one. Let's think Kuwait about 12 years ago, it gets invaded by Iraq, Kuwait cannot deliver anymore oil to it's trading partners! Now I don't remember anybody getting mad at Kuwait but I do remember very well that about 500k coalition forces from the trading partners came in and kicked the Iraquis out. In your example if I mortgage a house and I loose my job the bank' initial reaction wont ne to get mad at me and refuse to do any business with me but they would discuss it give and depending on the situation give some time to make everything right.

On the other side in game terms I do undertand why they implemented it. YOu can destroy your own roads and thus exploit this to death. But the AI should not be able to only see black and white but also the grey area in btwn!

Coracle: DO you ever get tired of repeatin and repeating and repeatin and repeating and repeating and repeating and repeating and repeating ... ...and repeating yourself !

	08-08-2002 16:52									#18
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quote: Originally posted by The Pioneer But I do not agree with you and since you drew an ovesrimplified example from real life I'll give you another one. Let's think Kuwait about 12 years ago, it gets invaded by Iraq, Kuwait cannot deliver anymore oil to it's trading partners! Now I don't remember anybody getting mad at Kuwait but I do remember very well that about 500k coalition forces from the trading partners came in and kicked the Iraquis out.

Like all analogies, it is for illustration only, so don't take it too literally. But in this case, Kuwait would be considered part of the western sphere of influence and the attack on Kuwait was considered an attack on Western Civ's oil supply. Anyway, it's just a game, so some (a lot!) of abstraction is required.

quote: In your example if I mortgage a house and I loose my job the bank' initial reaction wont ne to get mad at me and refuse to do any business with me but they would discuss it give and depending on the situation give some time to make everything right.

If you miss a mortgage payment, even just one, you lose your credit (reputation). Don't worry, though, the bank won't nuke your house.

	08-08-2002 17:03									#19
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quote: Originally posted by The Pioneer Ok, let's say that I traded my wines with the AI but before the 20 turns are up I get attacked by a third Civ or barbarians who deny me access to the wines. Surely the AI's should understand that it was not my fault, right? Anybody ever noticed what the reaction is if you get yourself in such a predicament? So long...

Firaxis really needs to fix that one!

	08-08-2002 17:35									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Zachriel Like all analogies, it is for illustration only, so don't take it too literally. If you miss a mortgage payment, even just one, you lose your credit (reputation). Don't worry, though, the bank won't nuke your house.

I am not, I actually do not advocate that the game be in parity with reality. As for bad credit rating, that's a US issue here in Germany banks and the system are more "humane".

In any case I think the difficulty seems to be that the AI cannot differentiate between the different causes of the disruption!

So long...

	08-08-2002 20:51									#21
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Yes, it sucks eggs when your deal is 'broken' and not by anything you did or could prevent.

Get Harbors to keep the road pillage thing from breaking your deals. (Of course the AI is VERY slow at building them, so that might not have helped.)

Off Topic: Wow! Coracle didn't mention Culture Flip. He must've been having a bad day.