06-08-2002 23:48									#1
	Extra Pack, Existing Civs, part 4: Egypt, Babylonia, China Increase Your PM Length

Egypt

Cities:

Waset
Men-Nefer
Iunu
Adu
Alexandria
Pi-Ramesses
Rostau
Sai
Akhet-Aten
Nekhen
Abtu
Harawet
Itjtawy
Per-Wadjet
Djeba
Pa-Tum
Djedo
Saqqara
Dashur
Hotep-Senusret
Hut-Heryib
Hnes
Per-Djedet
Khemenu
El-Ashmunein
Suan
Buhen
Siwa
Per-Bastet
Sharuna
Tjeny
Oryx
Ipet-Resyt
Bakh
Thinis
Gebtu
Tjebnutjer
Antinoe
Gebelen
Hardai
Hawara
Matmar
Swentet
El-Cab
Hebenu
Meha
P-aaleq
Gurob
Faras
Damanhur
Abu Rawash
Dara
Kumna
Hermonthis
Khutbe
Sauty
Henen-Nesut
Semna
El-Bersheh
Tjel
Kerma
Tukh
Wadi Halfa
Meidum
Akhmim
Tell-Yahudijeh
Neferusi
Tod
Taremu
Aniba
Quban
Senu
Kahi-Nub
Antaiopolis
Nubt
Qantir
Ipet-Isut
El-Kantara
Nekhbet
Iunet
El-Minja
Medamud
Erment
Timinhor
Abu Sir
Xois
Sekhem
Iuny
Hut-Sekhem
Rosette
She-Resy
Iunyt

Leaders:
Menes
Djoser
Ramses
Cheops
Amenophis
Khufu
Mentuhotep
Herihor
Ahmose
Snofru
Psammetich
Pepi
Hatshepsut
Sesostris

Babylon:

Cities
Babylon
Ur
Nineveh
Ashur
Ellipi
Akkad
Uruk
Eridu
Samarra
Lagash
Kish
Nippur
Shuruppak
Zariqum
Sippar
Izibia
Mari
Larsa
Calah
Zamua
Karkemish
Urartu
Khorsabad
Hindana
Eshnunna
Tell Wilaya
Umma
Adab
Telloh
Borsippa
Nina
Ebla
Godin Tepe
Awan
Der
Dura Europos
Nuzi
Harran
Til Barsib
Kahat
Hatra
Terqa
Anat
Neribtum
Nina
Badtibira
Zabalam
Kisurra
Kuta
Urkish
Arsameia
Emar
Tushpa
Kakzu
Kar Tukulti Ninurta
Puzrishdagan
Rapiqum
Ekallatum
Shusharra
Arapha
Dur-Kurigalzu

Leaders:
Sargon
Sanherib
Ashurbanipal
Rimsin
Nabopolassar
Burnaburiash
Urnammu
Tiglatpilesar
Asarhaddon
Ishbi-Erra
Rusa
Tukultininurta
Nebuchadnezzar
Naramsin
Shupiluliuma
Argum
Kutirnachunte
Shamshi-Adad
Kurigalzu
Lugalzagesi
Mesalim
Salmanassar

China (thanks, lord merciless):

Cities
Beijing
Changan
Loyang
Shanghai
Guangzhou
Jiankang
Hongkong
Tsingtao
Kaifeng
Taipeh
Chengdu
Hangzhou
Tientsin
Tatung
Fushun
Anyang
Taiyuan
Shenjang
Wuchang
Yangzhou
Liaojang
Jinan
Lanzhou
Kunmin
Guiling
Changchun
Ningbo
Baoding
Tainan
Jiangling
Suzhou
Zhangjiakou
Taichung
Wuxi
Fuzhou
Ye Chang
Harbin
Xuzhou
Dalian
Baotou
Chongqing
Kaohsiung
Guiyang
Xining
Hohhot
Yumen
Haikou
Nanyang
Xuchang
Chaoge
Gong yang
Tianshui
Zhending

Leaders:
Zhou Wu Wang
Sun Tzu
Shi Huang Di
Liu Che
Wei Qing
Cao Cao
Zhuge Liang
Li Shimin
Li Jin
Zhao Kuangyin
Yue Fei
Zhu Yuangzhang
Xuan Ye
Sun Yat-Tsen
Deng Xiaoping
Chiang Kai-Chek

Last edited by Wernazuma III on 13-08-2002 at 02:13

	08-08-2002 02:34									#2
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No one suggesting changes?
Did I really get them all in their "native" spelling? I doubt that, especially for the Egyptian list. Some of those cities are from an italian historical atlas...

	08-08-2002 05:12									#3
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For a Chinese leader: the priest Hwui Shan (sp?), who explored the Americas in the 23rd century BC.

	08-08-2002 16:39									#4
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quote: Hierakonpolis

Shouldn't it be Hieraconpolis? I don't know what the native egyptian spelling is like though.

	08-08-2002 16:41									#5
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quote: For a Chinese leader: the priest Hwui Shan (sp?), who explored the Americas in the 23rd century BC.

23rd century BC? Sounds controversial to say the least

	08-08-2002 18:35									#6
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It is well documented in the Shan Hai King by minister and later
emperor Yu, who sent out explorers to 'the four corners of the earth'.

The voyage to Fu Sang, as they called the Americas, was measured to be about 7,000 miles east of China. The priest reported that 'the cities of this country need no walls as they wage no wars'. Stone arrowheads (Folsom Points?) were returned as tribute to Emperor Yu in 2205 B.C.

I have to add though that there is some confusion whether Hwui Shan was on the first Chinese expedition to the Americas or on a later one (around 500 AD). But there seems to be little doubt that he is a real historical figure.

Last edited by Ribannah on 08-08-2002 at 18:50

	08-08-2002 21:20									#7
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I agree with Gangerolf. This sounds like taking Atlantis for fact.

In reply to Gangerolf: The ancient Agyptians themselves didn't call the city Hierac/konpolis at all. It's a Greek name. As I've transcribed "kappa" as k in the Greek city list, I decided to do it here too.

	08-08-2002 22:55									#8
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Some day you'll have to do that, too.
However, Plato did not describe the exact position of Atlantis, or its coast, or the landscape with rivers and mountains that match exactly what we now know about Atlantis, or the minerals that are found, or the adobe houses of the Atlantians and their way of life, and he didn't leave anchor stones and coins nor did he teach them agriculture, writing or the bow & arrow. Neither do we have legends told by the Atlantians of how they were visited by other peoples from beyond the ocean before the white people arrived.

	09-08-2002 00:24									#9
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Fu Sang was an ancient Chinese name for Japan, who lies 700 miles out to the sea from China.

The Hwui Shan existed. However, he didn't discover America, but merely brought Japan into contact with China. Beginning from 620AD, Japanese sent scores of delegations study the Chinese culture. For example, their former capital Kyoto was modelled after Chang An.

	09-08-2002 00:39									#10
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I won't reply to this after this post, as this really isn't the place. But all this sounds more like the work of someone who wants to "proove" something at all cost, disregarding the million arguments against it, founding it on 3 lines in an old account and 2 items. The teaching of writing and agriculture is the most ridiculous in all this, beside the early date...

Lord Merciless' reply does sound reasonable though.

	09-08-2002 02:01									#11
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Ribannah-- There is no evidence at all that he ever visited America. Indeed, it is highly improbable.

	09-08-2002 03:19									#12
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Well, it seems funny to me that you think the idea of the Chinese reaching the Americas is so outrageous, while they had the equipment and the thrive to do it. The Buddhist priests made much further journeys than that to spread their belief.
Also, like I said, most of the original report has been saved.
It can be found in the Imperial Archives in Beijing, where it was studied by - who else - Jesuit priests.

But like Wernazuma III says, this should be discussed in another thread.

Lord Merciless, Hwui Shan's description of mountains and rivers does not match the geography of Japan.

Fu Sang is not an ancient name for Japan. It's the Chinese name for the Mulberry tree, which grows in China (and Japan) but also in Honduras and Guatemala. Japan was well known and already had a name, the newly discovered land still needed one.

Last edited by Ribannah on 09-08-2002 at 03:57

	09-08-2002 03:24									#13
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Oops double post.

	09-08-2002 04:15									#14
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quote: The voyage to Fu Sang, as they called the Americas, was measured to be about 7,000 miles east of China. The priest reported that 'the cities of this country need no walls as they wage no wars'. Stone arrowheads (Folsom Points?) were returned as tribute to Emperor Yu in 2205 B.C.

60 minutes or whatever show that was on never proved that.

It is likely, supposedly, they possibly could have, but why would they have? We're talking about an amazingly advanced civilization that could have developed gunpowder, but did not have the necessity to...

quote: Also, like I said, most of the original report has been saved. It can be found in the Imperial Archives in Beijing, where it was studied by - who else - Jesuit priests.

The report I heard was that information was only found 20 years ago by some strange person who had a strange theory

(Now please note: I don't discount that the Chinese MAY HAVE reach N. America... The question is why they would have even tried... They had indonesia and Australia even closer (although the winds weren't exactly favorable there)

And just so you don't think I'm slamming the chinese, I know they visited Constantinople, etc. during the roman ages... As well as reaching the tip of africa...
But the main question is why they would travel 7000 miles the other way when they could easily go east? They had no need.

	09-08-2002 04:21									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Ribannah Fu Sang is not an ancient name for Japan. It's the Chinese name for the Mulberry tree, which grows in China (and Japan) but also in Honduras and Guatemala. Japan was well known and already had a name, the newly discovered land still needed one.

I'm ethnically Chinese and know my NATIVE language better than you.

	09-08-2002 04:23									#16
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-
Just wondering, Lord Merciless- is it also a name for the Mulberry tree?

	09-08-2002 04:25									#17
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quote: It is well documented in the Shan Hai King by minister and later emperor Yu, who sent out explorers to 'the four corners of the earth'.

So?
Many ancient rulers said they sent out explorers to the four corners of the earth- are you prepared to believe them all?

	09-08-2002 04:27									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Ribannah Well, it seems funny to me that you think the idea of the Chinese reaching the Americas is so outrageous, while they had the equipment and the thrive to do it. The Buddhist priests made much further journeys than that to spread their belief. Also, like I said, most of the original report has been saved. It can be found in the Imperial Archives in Beijing, where it was studied by - who else - Jesuit priests.

Sources? Evidence? Proofs?

If the Commies in Beijing found out that some of my ancestors have reached America, they would have made myriads of propaganda by now. So far I haven't heard or seen anything.

I only remember that couple years ago, some one proposed that Chinese might have reached America. But the notion was rejected by the mainstream Chinese scholars and academics because there is no sufficient evidence to support that.

	09-08-2002 04:42									#19
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Shan Hai King, or better pronouced Shan Hai Jin, was a very controversial book. It indeed described sceneries that can be found in America. For example the Grand Canyon. But since its language was so imprecise, the scenery it described may have well been a river valley in China.

Archeologically speaking, China's recorded past can only be traced to around 1500BC when the Shang dynasty moved its capital to Anyang. The last 12 rulers of Shang were the first historically recorded rulers of China. There is also a legendary Xia dynasty before Shang. But beside Shi Ji, there is really no other historical source confirming its existence. Even Shi Ji borrowed many of its records from folklores and legends. Recent archeological digs so far confirms the existence of relatively sophiscated cultures, but no signs of town-sized sites or written documents from this time have been discovered.

So the claim that Chinese made it to America in 2250BC was a complete non-sense, given today's archeological evidence. You can always fantasize about all kinds of wild claims flying around, but that's fantasy, not facts and science.

	09-08-2002 04:56									#20
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quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud It is likely, supposedly, they possibly could have, but why would they have? We're talking about an amazingly advanced civilization that could have developed gunpowder, but did not have the necessity to...

As for the reason of the earliest expeditions (sent by Yu), I'd say illusions of grandeur. This Yu was a very ambitious man who eventually made emperor. The later (400-500 AD) expeditions were inspired by the wish to spread Buddhism.

Note btw that at least these later voyages did not go due east but via the Bering Sea, as safe as trips like this can be. They then proceeded along the west coast of the Americas, mapping the land and its inhabitants a ways inward.

Later, this route was retraced in its entirety by the Jesuits who had studied the reports.

There were more Chinese expeditions around 1400 AD by admiral Zheng who is also said to have circumnavigated the world. His maps were the probable basis of the Toscanelli map that was used by Columbus.

quote: But the main question is why they would travel 7000 miles the other way when they could easily go east? They had no need.

Er - they DID go east.

quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud Many ancient rulers said they sent out explorers to the four corners of the earth- are you prepared to believe them all?

Name one.

	09-08-2002 05:01									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Lord Merciless Archeologically speaking, China's recorded past can only be traced to around 1500BC ...

This only implies that 2250 BC is a rough estimate. Nobody is claiming otherwise.

quote: Originally posted by Lord Merciless I'm ethnically Chinese and know my NATIVE language better than you.

Cool!
But I notice you didn't answer DC's question about the Mulberry tree ...

The story that Fu Sang indicated Japan was started during a weak 18th century rule. It was always the local custom to downplay earlier dynasty's achievements; I already mentioned the bookburnings. The communist rule was no exception to this tradition either.

quote: Originally posted by Lord Merciless I only remember that couple years ago, some one proposed that Chinese might have reached America. But the notion was rejected by the mainstream Chinese scholars and academics because there is no sufficient evidence to support that.

IIRC that story was about remnants of the Shang dynasty fleeing to the Americas. This is something different.

	09-08-2002 05:08									#22
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Actually, Admiral Zheng He and his sponsor Zhu Di(the Emperor) would quite suitable Chinese GLs.

If Zheng He actually discovered America, then it would be even more disappointing for Chinese because they didn't make anything out of that discovery.

Ray Huang's book '1587 - A Year of No Significance' fully described how pathetic Ming really was.

	09-08-2002 05:15									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Lord Merciless Actually, Admiral Zheng He and his sponsor Zhu Di(the Emperor) would quite suitable Chinese GLs.

Hey, you're absolutely right!
Wernazuma III, are you stil with us?

quote: If Zheng He actually discovered America, then it would be even more disappointing for Chinese because they didn't make anything out of that discovery.

Well, he made maps. Did was what he was asked to do.

quote: Ray Huang's book '1587 - A Year of No Significance' fully described how pathetic Ming really was.

	09-08-2002 05:35									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Ribannah Cool! But I notice you didn't answer DC's question about the Mulberry tree ... The story that Fu Sang indicated Japan was started during a weak 18th century rule. It was always the local custom to downplay earlier dynasty's achievements; I already mentioned the bookburnings. The communist rule was no exception to this tradition either. IIRC that story was about remnants of the Shang dynasty fleeing to the Americas. This is something different.

You really know Chinese history well, Sang indeed means the Mulberry tree. But why do you assume that mulberry trees only grow in Americas? Do you know that silkworms thrive on mulberry trees, and that there is a Chinese surname of the same character?

I think that Zheng He made it to America is quite credible, but that people during Shang time got there? That's too wild.

	09-08-2002 21:24									#25
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OK, please stop it. I don't mean this as offense, actually I think it's fun to discuss such stuff, but not here. If someone opens a thread about this in Off-Topic and tells me, I'll readily join in.

Zheng He as a Chinese GL? - Good idea, done.

	09-08-2002 21:33									#26
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Sorry about that, Wernazuma.

As for your Chinese city list, it looks pretty good. However, you may want to be consistent and replace all 'ts' with 'Q' and all 'hs' with 'X'.

	09-08-2002 22:01									#27
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OK, remind me, should I forget it, as I got to go having dinner.

	09-08-2002 23:18									#28
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quote: Er - they DID go east.

I meant west.

quote: There were more Chinese expeditions around 1400 AD by admiral Zheng who is also said to have circumnavigated the world. His maps were the probable basis of the Toscanelli map that was used by Columbus.

Where did he stop near europe, the canaries? or did he circumnavigate via southern routes?
Are there any European records or native tales to confirm this?

quote: As for the reason of the earliest expeditions (sent by Yu), I'd say illusions of grandeur. This Yu was a very ambitious man who eventually made emperor. The later (400-500 AD) expeditions were inspired by the wish to spread Buddhism. Note btw that at least these later voyages did not go due east but via the Bering Sea

I still don't believe that, but it does make some sense.

quote: Name one

I don't think I have to, but remember Constantine, Nero, etc. many roman empires claimed to have discovered the whole world, etc. strange claims.

And as for Alexander, he thought he conquered just about everything (except for the western Europe)

Other rulers have made calims to have sent explorers to 'the four corners' but this was before everything was discovered. For them the 4 corners could have been perhaps 500 miles in each direction

	10-08-2002 01:29									#29
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Qingtao and Tienqin?

	10-08-2002 01:35									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Wernazuma III Qingtao and Tienqin?

Was it spelled Tientsin? Damn, 'ts' could also be 'J'. So in this case: Tienjin. Qingtao is correct, although it could also be Qingdao. But I don't know a simple way to tell you when to use 't' and when to use 'd', so I think we should just leave the rest the way it is.