07-08-2002 06:44									#1
	Would the United Stated have used the bomb on white, West-European Germans? Remove this text

Boris' interesting thread on Hiroshima has got me thinking. Would America have dropped Atomic bombs on the cities of white, European Germans if the war in western europe lasted longer than it did? Would it have been Hamburg instead of Hiroshima? Certainly there are few that would dispute America at the time (and most likely now as well) would have felt less guilt about dropping the bomb on dastardly, east-asian, slanty-eyed "japs" than a country that we have much in common with culturally such as Germany.
What do you think, if the Germans stuck it out until September '45 and were still a considerable threat, would we have dropped the bomb on them?

	07-08-2002 06:48									#2
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*points to Dresden*

	07-08-2002 06:54									#3
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Yes they would. That was the reason for building the bomb after all. I think Berlin would have been the target considering the terrible losses that Russia had taking the city.

If it was only a matter of a short time before the Nazis surrendered that would be different but you did say "considerable threat".

Try reading King Rat. James Clavell is certain he would have been murdered at Changi prison if we had invaded Japan. There were 10,000 prisoners of war there and more elsewhere and all the prisons had recieved order to kill the POWs should Japan be invaded.

Even without that invading Japan would have been a major undertaking with at least much death and destruction as the invasion of Europe not counting the Japanese tendency towards suicide tactics and just plain suicide in general.

Once the concentration camps were liberated no one had any good will for Germans anymore. I think few Americans thought better of them after that then they did the Japanese.

	07-08-2002 07:16									#4
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I would say almost definitely. I don't think the cultural differences matter. You have to remember that the general thinking at the time was much different - I mean, civilian populations were considered legitimate targets in attempts to demoralize and reduce the working population. Also, the effects of radiation were not as well understood then (certainly not as widely, anyway), so the a-bomb was probably viewed as just a huge explosion by many in the government, really no different than large-scale carpet bombing, only more concentrated.

	07-08-2002 07:19									#5
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quote: *points to Dresden*

Or Hamburg.

	07-08-2002 08:16									#6
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Yes. They would have bombed them as much as possible in order to get them to surrender. It's just that the "bandy-legged Nips" held out long enough while the Krauts had already given up...

	07-08-2002 08:33									#7
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Yup. Americans at this time hated Germand just as much as any colored race.

	07-08-2002 08:45									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi Yup. Americans at this time hated Germand just as much as any colored race.

Not quite.

Germans in the US never faced the same type of antagonism that Japs did. Germans were whites who had let themselves be led astray; Japs were born that way...

	07-08-2002 08:52									#9
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i think there's a chance it could have happened... but i also believe that had such a bombing occured, there would have been a lot more furor over it.

why? it's easier to empathize with someone who looks like you. and although we're all "human", the slanted eyes we asians have kinda set us apart from all the caucasian folk from europe.

	07-08-2002 08:53									#10
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To be honest, I don't think so. The cities were in ruin anyway; it was britain's problem; and should the bomb fail, the germans would be more able to copy the American technology.

	07-08-2002 09:03									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Grrr should the bomb fail, the germans would be more able to copy the American technology

No they wouldn't. They were still missing massive quantities of Pu or U235...

	07-08-2002 09:03									#12
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And they'd never even managed to build a functioning reactor...

	07-08-2002 09:07									#13
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Was that due to Heisenberg's incompetence or a genuine lack of resources, etc.?

	07-08-2002 09:09									#14
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German Americans faced less trouble in WW2 because they had already proven reliable in WW1.

I have no doubt that the US would have dropped the Bomb if there was reason to do it.

Dresden, Hamburg, and Morgenthau Plan were brutal enough.

	07-08-2002 09:12									#15
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Was that due to Heisenberg's incompetence or a genuine lack of resources, etc.?

Supposedly Heisenberg incompetence, but Germany simply wasn't pouring enough resources into it. Their project was orders of magnitude smaller than the American one, and as soon as they hit a snag, they basically shut down...

	07-08-2002 09:13									#16
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Why are some of you people so much more accepting of America's use of firebombing then the use of the Atomic bomb. Did the people of Japan suffer so much more then the people of Dresdan and Hamburg?

	07-08-2002 09:15									#17
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Was that due to Heisenberg's incompetence or a genuine lack of resources, etc.?

Lack of knowledge of what their problems were. The heavy water plant was built because they didn't know how to use graphite as a moderater. Had to due with contamination of their graphite source.

Heisenberg wasn't incompetent. He was only one man not a huge nultinational team. He had help of course but most of Germany's best and brightest in the field had taken off for other countries in the thirties. There is also a possibility that Heisenberg was deliberatly holding up the project.

	07-08-2002 09:16									#18
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The people in Japan suffered a LOT less than those of the German cities.

	07-08-2002 09:19									#19
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Turn the question around: Would Hitler have used the bomb on London if he had it? Of course he would.

There probably would have been a bit more agonising about nuking Berlin but I'm sure they would have done it. The same arguments would have won out - saving the lives of allied troops, shortening the war, that sort of thing.

	07-08-2002 09:19									#20
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copenhagen is a good play about that.

but recent evidence and letters seem to point to the fact that he really was stumped, and although probably not giving his whole effort into the project, wasn't really holding it back.

	07-08-2002 09:29									#21
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quote: but recent evidence and letters seem to point to the fact that he really was stumped, and although probably not giving his whole effort into the project, wasn't really holding it back

Heisenberg had himself and a dozen or two other scientists. At its peak the Manhattan project employed two or three thousand (?) scientists and tens of thousands of technicians, workers, etc.

The scale of the efforts is completely different. No one man built the US atomic bomb, which is what the Germans were asking of Heisenberg...

	07-08-2002 09:32									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber Why are some of you people so much more accepting of America's use of firebombing then the use of the Atomic bomb. Did the people of Japan suffer so much more then the people of Dresdan and Hamburg?

Not really. The reaction is a gut one. The world lived with the threat of nuclear annihilation for 50+ years, therefore there's an emotional response to their actual use. Whether you kill 200 000 people over the space of a week with conventional weapons or 200 000 people in one instant with an atomic weapon doesn't seem to be much different to me.

	07-08-2002 09:38									#23
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quote: Not quite. Germans in the US never faced the same type of antagonism that Japs did. Germans were whites who had let themselves be led astray; Japs were born that way...

No...Germans were spied on (see, german-american Bund and germantowns in NY). I rememeber living in Long Island and driving through Yaphank and still seeing "Hitler Street" and "Goebbels Ave". This was in 1995-97 mind you. The german populations had since moved out for some time giving way to hispanics and polish people who couldnt really read the signs anyway. (Ide be suprised if they were still up). Anyway the germans left these towns because of busts and spying searches. etc.....

Anyway back to the orignal question. Yes the germans were spied on. But they werent rounded up. It was simply too difficult considering


But the fact how much Americans of German descent were actually in the army. Somthing like 15% of those drafted in the pool were germans. So it was too difficult. Unlike the japanese civilians, who were small and weak for the most.

	07-08-2002 09:39									#24
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oops got caught off considering..owell. I have to throw papers.lol. cya

	07-08-2002 09:41									#25
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory No...Germans were spied on (see, german-american Bund and germantowns in NY). I rememeber living in Long Island and driving through Yaphank and still seeing "Hitler Street" and "Goebbels Ave". This was in 1995-97 mind you. The german populations had since moved out for some time giving way to hispanics and polish people who couldnt really read the signs anyway. (Ide be suprised if they were still up). Anyway the germans left these towns because of busts and spying searches. etc..... Anyway back to the orignal question. Yes the germans were spied on. But they werent rounded up. It was simply too difficult considering But the fact how much Americans of German descent were actually in the army. Somthing like 15% of those drafted in the pool were germans. So it was too difficult. Unlike the japanese civilians, who were small and weak for the most.

Faded, the view of Japanese and Germans was completely different. It has mainly to do with the fact that Germans looked like "everybody else" and Japanese were readily identifiable. Remember that this is in a society which was still running on Jim Crow...

	07-08-2002 10:26									#26
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As others have mentioned, developing the bomb in the timeframe required a massive scientific and economic effort of which probably only the United States was capable at the time.

The Germans had the choice to go down the nuclear path in 1940 but went for rockets instead. They couldn't do both.

The fact that nuclear science, relativity and the like was tainted as "Jewish science" also helped a lot because nazi scientists and physics schools were not up with the latest theory. They had dealt themselves out in the thirties. Its one of those nice little historical ironies for which we should be grateful.

	07-08-2002 11:25									#27
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1. Germany undestood the concept of surrender. The Japanese never surrendered.

2. By the time the bomb was developed D-day had succeded and Patton and Montgomery were having unexpected and swift succeses.

3. The United States had direct competition with Japan in the Pacific, however the US had little direct competition with Germany expansion/imperial wise.

4. Japan is so much more mountaneous and treachorous than Japan.

5. Food in Japan would be MUCH harder to come by than in contintental Europe during protracted fighting. Disturbing the commerce in Japan would have led to mass starvation much larger than that in Europe post ww2.

7 Supplying an invasion of Japan would be a logistic nightmare. Its one thing when you have Britain next door. Supplying millions of troops thousands of miles away for perhaps years on end fighting in Japan would totally sap the economies of the west.

	07-08-2002 11:28									#28
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The following scenario would have been interesting:

Dday fails. Roosevelt demonstrates the awesome might of his fully-functional "battle station" (hehe) by letting the Germans know what fate might await them. Then maybe nuke a city. I wonder how the war would have ended that way.

	07-08-2002 11:43									#29
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They did a poll at the time IIRC of least like ethnic groups during WWII. #1 was Germans, #2 was Japanese, and #3 were the Jews.

	07-08-2002 12:05									#30
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there's also the matter that the Japanese attacked us first at Pearl Harbour... we just went to war with Germany because they were the enemy of our allies and the ally of our enemy... we wanted revenge for pearl harbour...