07-08-2002 16:55									#1
	Pre-poll discussion: Turnthreads Enter the AD-FREE zone

The last days with all the discussions about time zones and Uber's revolution have shown, that the current system of turnchats can not be taken any longer as it is. It is ineffective, boring and unpredictable, because it is hard to coordinate the schedule of so many people around the globe. Also, the DALnet has shown to be a serious problem too, because it's often pretty hard to get a connection. This is a pre-poll discussion thread for a turnthread system. I think it is applicable, and I would like to hear your opinions.

• Twice a week, I suggest Sunday and Wednesday, the President opens a new thread and posts the current executive report and the savegame in the first post. This thread is exclusively for governmental purposes, no spam or comments allowed. The president posts a deadline (GMT please), until which the instructions of the ministers have to be posted.
  
• The ministers meet their decision using the posted savegame, make polls if necessary, and post their instructions in the thread, as detailed as possible and as needed. No per-turn descriptions, though. Examples like "The stack of 4 swordsmen moves towards city X" or "3 workers build road from X to Y, the rest clears jungle around Z" should suffice.
  
• After the deadline the president plays the game in a time, that suits him. He has to do his best to play, as he was told by the ministers. He is allowed to meet minor decisions himself, so for instance if the AI wants to trade techs or maps, or if it blocks the way for our units. The president has a certain "allowance" of turns to play at most. I would suggest 5.
  
• The president has to stop on the first of 3 cases:
  
  
  
  1. He needs new instructions of the ministers.
     
  2. He runs out of his "turn allowance".
     
  3. Something unforeseen happens, for instance a declaration of war or an important discovery.
     
  
  
• The whole process starts again.
  

	07-08-2002 17:06									#2
	Got spare money?

I think spam and comments hsould be allowed, as in the public turnchat. The major flaw of turnthreads is that they are boring, and people don't feel involved in them. If we allow the public to talk in them, maybe they'll be less boring.

Overall, I think turnthreads will soon completely replace turnchats, because they're much more efficient. What we should do to keep some "live" in the game, is regular chats intended to discuss matters, in a lively way.

Other than the "no spam" point, I agree with pretty everything you said

	07-08-2002 17:09									#3
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Well it looks like finally the Civ3 game is starting to fall into the successful mould of the Civ2 game before it. Ironically, although one of the most sceptical of the turnthread, I feel I must defend it right now.

I do not believe the problems we have been facing are an unavoidable result of the system, rather some individuals acting rather badly. The times can and will be changed (although it seems not sufficiently so for all of us ), but I don't think we should scrap the system yet.

Please let us try to hold ditching what we have done until now until we have reached the war with France. IMO once France is taken this would be a good time to end, and I really don't see whay we can't work around problems until then, provided we all act responsibly.

The biggest problem I have seen (I didn't witness this last chat) is with Ministers missing the chats. With a different time, this should change for the better, provided the Ministers themselves cooperate. With the relevant ppl/orders, there shouldn't be a reason why the Cabinet can't ignore any BS in the chat and get to the point with at least 4-5 turns/hour chat. Another few weeks and France will be attacked. Then we can ditch the chats, and may need to because the number of units and cities we are left with may cause a helluva slowdown. Furthermore, that point will result in a change of emphasis and a lot of rethinking. It would seem to be a perfect time to let the chats lie.

Although I gain no enjoyment or otherwise from chat ( I can't get to them), I know that a lot of ppl really enjoy them, and it may be the only reason some stick around here. Let's not arbitrarily take away this fun because of a single awful chat. We need to fix the recurring time/attendance problems and get down to it. Once we have reached a natural place for losing the chats such a s the one I describe, then at least we do so with a good reason.

	07-08-2002 17:10									#4
	Inflate your Upload Space

Well, I'm not against "spam", but it makes it hard for the president to gather together important information from the ministers. What about 2 turnthreads, one for minister decisions and one for public discussions?

	07-08-2002 17:35									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

A sound idea SirRalph.
No debate at all should be allowed in the minister's thread then, even debate among ministers.

	07-08-2002 17:43									#6
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Great idea. I'm behind it.

However, I agree with MWIA that the chats are part of the reason some people are still here. Maybe have every other playing session as a turnthread...?

	07-08-2002 17:52									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Spiffor: Agreed, the official turnthread shall be limited to one post per minister, no discussion there. If the minister changes his mind, he has to edit his one and only post.

Vlad Antlerkov: I agree what concerns the fun part of the chats, but the turnchats as they are, are not possible for long ahead anyway. As the # of cities and units grows, things will get worse and worse. But turnthreads and chats don't exclude each other. We might organize "Senate sessions" or the "Apolytonian Pub" on IRC for people to join and chat. Just nothing too official, as then time zone issues will be raised again.

	07-08-2002 17:57									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

"Apolytonian Pub"? I'll drink to that.

	07-08-2002 18:00									#9
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I like the sound of Sir Ralph's proposed structure. As the scale and scope of our civ and the game expands, the current system of turnchats is going to come under increasing amounts of stress. Something along the lines of turnthreads, as here described, is probably inevitable, sooner or later.
Speaking as one who doesn't attend the turnchats, let me add that this game is, usually, a lot fun to participate in via the forum.
Perhaps "turnchats" should evolve into regularly scheduled sessions of the senate, in which the citizens debate policy. (We could even have committees, as in the U.S. Senate). While the game is actually executed, by the executive, via the turnthread mechanism.
This structure would preserve participation via chats, and keep a "live" channel open for the voice of the people, yet enable efficient execution.
The court's job would become making sure that the executive played the game according to the popular will.

[edited: minor corrections, to clarify]

Last edited by Robber Baron on 07-08-2002 at 18:06

	07-08-2002 18:43									#10
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I like the idea, i just have one question

how many turns would be playable in one turnthread with the limited short term plans of the ministers?

I can see this sort of thing working, but turnthreads would be ended pretty quickly should a deal become available. And i would think if we got in a long war, alot of on the moment decisions would need be made.

but yeah, this can work.

	07-08-2002 18:49									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Well, I have suggested a "turn allowance" of 5, but this can be a matter to discuss. And about wars, nobody hinders, say, the President and the SMC to make "internal" turnchats, for instance, if it's really needed and applicable by their respective timezones. May be at weekend.

	07-08-2002 19:19									#12
	Tired of ads?

A turn allowance of 5 is a good choice IMHO. However I think we should be stricter when defining when the president has to stop playing. Other than when an AI declares war or when an important discovery is made, the president should also halt in case an AI makes a demand.
I remember playing once on emperor when Greece which was pretty far from my territory made a small demand (~30 gold and a world map). I refused their demand and they declared war on me. Several turns later, they declared a military alliance with Germany, which in turn declared its alliance with another AI. After 10 turns I found myself in war against five different civs, all because I didn't agree to part with 30 gold and my world map!
Of course this would mean that the president would be likely to play less turns for each turnthread, but I think we can compensate for this with three turnthreads a week.
We should try that. If holding three turnthreads a week becomes too much of a hassle (it probably will in the modern era when turns will become more complicated) we can always go back to two.
What do you think?

Edit: also, I suggest that one of the weekly turnthreads will always be held during a weekend (the thread will be opened friday afternoon and closed sunday evening).

	07-08-2002 19:49									#13
	Suffering from ads?

You can not stop and save when the AI makes a demand. You can just say yes or no.

But I agree, the cases when the President has to stop, should be discussed. That's what this thread is for.

	07-08-2002 20:13									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I know. We'll load back to the end of the previous turn and the president will post the demands made by the AI civ. A discussion will be held concerning whether or not we should agree to the demands and the president will answer back to the AI civ the next time he plays.

	07-08-2002 22:48									#15
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph You can not stop and save when the AI makes a demand. You can just say yes or no. But I agree, the cases when the President has to stop, should be discussed. That's what this thread is for.

how about when plans become obsolete (as if from a techworing project) and a minister is not present? should the game stop before we even start a turn?

	07-08-2002 23:15									#16
	Increase Your PM Length

In such cases the president could stop the game, post a message requesting further discussion in the turnthread and once the situation is resolved, continue playing.
I know this would slow us down. That's why I suggest three turnthreads a week.

	08-08-2002 00:05									#17
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

SirRalph:

I think this is an overall sound plan that also allow the accomodation of changes in government. I agree in not letting anyone write in the thread other than government officials. I still have a few minor issues, like turn allowences- would it not be simpler to have each thread cover a specific number of turns from the outset? That way government officials know what kind of orders to give the president, and it might simplify the threads government officials set up in different threads?

As for using mIRC for a pub, or senate meetings...bravo, you menioned a senate!

	08-08-2002 00:16									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

This probably won't work, but we could try making it sort of like a succesion game - each Minister or assistant makes the moves he or she is all to make. However, this would really so things down, so don't consider it seriously.

	08-08-2002 00:26									#19
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

GePap: The President is already supposed to make a fixed # of turns, called "allowance" (find another word if you don't like it) every session. The 2 other reasons deal either with insufficient, unprecise or ambiguous minister instructions (which should rarely happen, if the ministers do their jobs well), or with the situation, that something unforeseen happens (which always can, as we know). But I suppose, in most cases the only limit will be the fixed allowance.

	08-08-2002 00:46									#20
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

It will also end the problem of people not being able to join IRC at all from certain sites. BTW, it is those people who work who will most likely haul the load while many of the students will lack any kind of control over their schedules (with some exceptions).

Further along those lines it would reveal the record of discussion for all to see and hopefully eliminate the nasty he said-she said that has arisen recently.

Finally, I can think of at least 2 excellent candidates for leadership who we very well may lose if we continue with the turn chats. I know MWIA has stated his not running due to turn chats. I suspect SirRalph has been silent on renomination for similar reasons.

Are there any compelling arguments against?

	08-08-2002 00:50									#21
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I really agree about the student thing. H*ll, it's still summer break and I have trouble attending the chats.

	08-08-2002 03:11									#22
	Get a bigger avatar today!

notyoueither - that has my complete support. I'm in the same position as MWIA. While turnchats continue, I can't take any senior position of office.

	08-08-2002 15:41									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither I suspect SirRalph has been silent on renomination for similar reasons.

No, my reasons are a sunshade, a deck chair, a never ending cocktail and a pool, all together located on Crete. A honorable reason?

But seriously, I won't run for any office again, as long as the turnchat system lasts. It's a big waste of spare time for somebody who doesn't have much of it.

	08-08-2002 22:47									#24
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Down with rurnchats!

Up with turnthreads!

This will also allow more people to participate, in addittion to eliminating my arch-enemy, the turnchat!

Yeah turnthreads!