09-08-2002 00:25									#91
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Why do the Kurds like us? I would have thought that after we sold them up the river they would, at best, only grudgingly tolerate us.

We've sold them up the river twice in the last thirty years. I'm going to assume they like us because of the no-fly zones and the fact that we protect their proto-state from Hussein.

	09-08-2002 00:29									#92
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara We've sold them up the river twice in the last thirty years.

When was the first time?

quote: I'm going to assume they like us because of the no-fly zones and the fact that we protect their proto-state from Hussein.

Then why don't the Shia like us?

	09-08-2002 00:36									#93
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Because they are Iranian .

Seriously, if we take out Saddam, either we replace him with a pro-US puppet dictator, who will get overthrown and replaced with an even more anti-US dictator, or everything will be thrown into chaos, and Iran will start to create Neo-Persia.

	09-08-2002 00:40									#94
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc When was the first time?

In the 1970s. Iraq and Iran were having problems over the Shat al'Arab, so the CIA and the Shah began supporting Iraqi Kurds to create a problem for the Iraqis. When the two countries settled their differences, the CIA cut off the Kurds. The transcripts from the Kurds to the CIA following Hussein's crack down on them are terribly heartwrenching.

quote: Then why don't the Shia like us?

Not because they are Iranian. They're Arabs (So's SouthWest Iran, btw.) We have not protected them from Iraq. Despite the no-fly zone, we didn't tell the Iraqis they couldn't reassert control here.

	09-08-2002 01:17									#95
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Che, Why wouldn't both Kurds and Shia's want to be part of a free and democratic Iraq, particularly if they were guaranteed religious and cultural freedom?

Which brings us to Hispania. Why are the Basques trying to secede from Spain? Is it because they are denied cultural freedom?

I think the Turks are afraid that there will be an independent Kurdistan. The Sunni regimes in the area fear an independent Shited Arab Republic. But I don't think either will happen if the US takes over and "stays" awhile to supervise a transition.

	09-08-2002 01:20									#96
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara In the 1970s. Iraq and Iran were having problems over the Shat al'Arab, so the CIA and the Shah began supporting Iraqi Kurds to create a problem for the Iraqis. When the two countries settled their differences, the CIA cut off the Kurds. The transcripts from the Kurds to the CIA following Hussein's crack down on them are terribly heartwrenching. Not because they are Iranian. They're Arabs (So's SouthWest Iran, btw.) We have not protected them from Iraq. Despite the no-fly zone, we didn't tell the Iraqis they couldn't reassert control here.

What happened after Desert Storm was f*cking unbelieveable, wasn't it. First Bush encourages the Kurds and Shiites to revolt. Then he refused to supply aid!

The movie Three Kings shows just how ethically wrong this policy was.

	09-08-2002 01:48									#97
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	09-08-2002 02:40									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Che, Why wouldn't both Kurds and Shia's want to be part of a free and democratic Iraq, particularly if they were guaranteed religious and cultural freedom?

The Kurds want their own state. Nationalism is a powerful ideology. The Kurds don't want to be a minority in someone else's state. The Shi'ites don't want to be the minority religion in a Sunni country, thus both groups have an incentive to agree to Kurdish secession. The Sunni Arabs wouldn't be able to block it.

quote: Which brings us to Hispania. Why are the Basques trying to secede from Spain? Is it because they are denied cultural freedom?

Again, nationalism. They were semi-independent in the 1930s, before Franco's revolt. They suffered under Franco, and they have the nationalism bug.

quote: I think the Turks are afraid that there will be an independent Kurdistan. The Sunni regimes in the area fear an independent Shited Arab Republic. But I don't think either will happen if the US takes over and "stays" awhile to supervise a transition.

If the US creates a democratic Iraq, how can the US prevent it? BTW, most of the Gulf states are Shi'ite.

Three Kings was an awesome movie.

	09-08-2002 02:52									#99
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quote: BTW, most of the Gulf states are Shi'ite.

Don't you mean... Sunni

	09-08-2002 05:37									#100
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Che, If the Kurds and the Shi'ites (do I have that right now?) want their own independent country, shouldn't we be demanding that now? After all, we demand it of Israel - that is - we demand that Israel give the Palestinians their own state.

Shouldn't we be consistent?

Ditto the Basques. They have been fighting for independence for 2000 years.

	09-08-2002 05:45									#101
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I'm in agreement with you, Ned. When I mention this I do so to point out to all those who would attack Iraq that it would cause problems for the US government. Personally, Iraq has no inherent right to exist. It's a state, not a nation.

I also think the Basques should be allowed self-determination. (BTW, they were independent until 1516 (IIRC, maybe 1512) when the Kingdom of Navarre was annexed by Spain.

Imran IIRC, the people of the Gulf states are largely Shi'ite while the governments are largely Sunni (of the Wahabi'ist sect). Hence the great fear and loathing of the Iranian revolution.

	09-08-2002 14:22									#102
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Why is Iraq worse than say,

Colombia, Zimbabwe, North Korea, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, India, Iran, Turkey, Russia, Israel etc...?

Why did Saddam suddenly become the bad guy - as far as the US he was the 'good guy' all the way up until 1990. Hell, up till then he was able to gas Kurds and the US turned a blind eye. He was their right hand man in the fight against revolutionary Iran...

So what's he done then that's so bad?

He's gassed (arguably more humane than Napalming people to death like the US in Vietnam!) a bunch of Kurds who were fighting a seperatist war against him anyway. But that was before 1990 so it was OK anyway.

And he attacked Kuwait after they were illegally drilling into Iraqi oil wells, on top of the historic claims Iraq has to the territory...

Hardly in the realms of the millions killed by US backed regimes the World over.

Iraq is also one of the more Westernised and progressive nations of the Middle East. By World Dictatorship standards he's not that bad a guy. By Middle East standards, he's almost a Saint!

Even during the Gulf War, although he attacked Israel with Scuds - he did not use any weapons of mass destruction.

People say "of course not - we would have killed him!"

The guy is a classic bully - the moment his ass is on the line he backs off, just like now when he's talking about allowing the weapons inspectors back in.

Now if the US does back him into a corner, what's he got to lose anymore?

Sounds like kicking open a hornet's nest IMO...