07-08-2002 18:56									#1
	Cutting it very close Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

The situation pictured below will net me TOE and Hoover, although look at my treasury!!

My question is, should I speed production in Shanghai by one turn, or slow production in Beijing by one turn?

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	07-08-2002 19:41									#2
	Re: Cutting it very close Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Theseus The situation pictured below will net me TOE and Hoover, although look at my treasury!! My question is, should I speed production in Shanghai by one turn, or slow production in Beijing by one turn?

IIRC, ToE gives you the tech you are currently researching plus one more you are free to choose. By speeding production in Shanghai, you would probably end up getting Atomic Theory (which you would get on that turn anyway) + Electronics. By delaying the Beijing production by one turn, you get Atomic Theory (in the ordinary way), Electronic (which you'd go researching after getting AT - from ToE), and something (from ToE, too).

If there was no autosave, I'd play it safely and delay Beijing by 1 turn. Having the autosave, I'd speed up Shanghai, see what happens and tell others! And if, by any chance, I was right in my assumption, than the autosave will be helpful (hell, it was played differently ONLY to see what happens...).

	07-08-2002 19:42									#3
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Slow in Beijing.

What happened to that "spare" leader?

-Arrian

	07-08-2002 19:57									#4
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I don;t have the game here, so I can;t experiment till tonight.

What I'm trying to figure out is the order of events... does research or production happen first?

Arrian, I'll answer the general GL question in the other thread; in this situation, specifically, I had been pre-building the Military Academy in Shanghai, and switched that to TOE. Also, I was like 6 out of 9 turns into Atomic Theory, and figured I could risk waiting a few turns (and I'm not currently at war, so no harm in keeping the GL). Beijing finished a University, and it's a better producer anyway, so I rushed the Academy there... probably a mistake, as 1) I think I'll keep getting GLs, and 2) I should be more focused on building GWs in Beijing.

Anyway, I'm just messin' around with this game. Up to now, it's been all war, all the time... literally.

	07-08-2002 20:05									#5
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I'm not sure about the research/production question, but I *think* it's production.

-Arrian

	07-08-2002 21:05									#6
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This is one of those cases where I think it's fine to
save and reaload if necessairy without calling it cheating. (intention to cheat is not there IMO)

	07-08-2002 21:37									#7
	Got spare money?

T

Would you mind for the relatively slow among us explaining what steps you would take to speed production of the wonder? It would seem clearly to save you a whole turn of research if you could.

Because you can still research when your treasury is zero, it would seem that you must be able to "earn" the research bucks first, implying production comes first, but that may be all wrong.

Interesting thread.

	07-08-2002 21:45									#8
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I haven't tried this myself, but I can't recall nbarclay being wrong about specific gameplay functions before. From the "If you haven't discovered this, you're misssing out on some serious gold" thread here in the strat forum:

quote: Originally posted by nbarclay One last thing worth mentioning for those who haven't tried it yet: in my experience, if you schedule the Theory of Evolution to complete the same turn you discover a new tech, you discover the tech before the ToE is finished. That means you can (for example), finish Combustion, shift to Atomic Theory, get that and Electronics from ToE, and then order research on Refining started all in one turn. Two full techs from ToE and no hiccup in the research schedule. Of course you have to be VERY careful not to finish ToE a turn early or finish the other research a turn late.

Catt

	07-08-2002 21:51									#9
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I think Nathan posted somewhere recently that he discovered that it's safe finish ToE in the same turn as you discover a tech. Research happens before production.

BTW, I'm enjoying your recent little threads with screenshots from that game, Theseus. Sounds like a good game.

[Edit: Catt, you're too fast for me!]

	07-08-2002 21:53									#10
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Yes, if you finish a tech and ToE you get three techs on that turn. I try to do this when possible.

I think that was the point. If Atomic finishes a turn early, before ToE, what are you going to do with the extra turn??

	07-08-2002 21:58									#11
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quote: Originally posted by jshelr Yes, if you finish a tech and ToE you get three techs on that turn. I try to do this when possible. I think that was the point. If Atomic finishes a turn early, before ToE, what are you going to do with the extra turn??

Set science to zero and build up more than 6 gold in the treasury!

Catt

	07-08-2002 22:26									#12
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Thanks for all the input! So, leave Beijing alone (for Hoover), and accelerate Shanghai. WOOHOO!!

jshelr, I've got both Beijing and Shanghai on way less than optimal production, incuding starvation, to get the timing I want.

alexman, it was Catt actually that got me hooked on screen shots (which I finally figured out how to do well). Now, whenever I see something interesting, I try to take the shot and put up a post.

	07-08-2002 22:31									#13
	Got spare money?

It would appear I was wrong. Not the first time, not the last, that's for sure. I've always timed it so that I get a tech, then have 1 turn at 100% tax while ToE finishes. But if I'm already rich, I've been wasting a turn. *Arrian's knowledge grows* Excellent, Smithers

-Arrian

p.s. Theseus, my friend, you is po!

	07-08-2002 23:02									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian p.s. Theseus, my friend, you is po!

	07-08-2002 23:10									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Catt I haven't tried this myself, but I can't recall nbarclay being wrong about specific gameplay functions before. From the "If you haven't discovered this, you're misssing out on some serious gold" thread here in the strat forum: Originally posted by nbarclay One last thing worth mentioning for those who haven't tried it yet: in my experience, if you schedule the Theory of Evolution to complete the same turn you discover a new tech, you discover the tech before the ToE is finished. That means you can (for example), finish Combustion, shift to Atomic Theory, get that and Electronics from ToE, and then order research on Refining started all in one turn. Two full techs from ToE and no hiccup in the research schedule. Of course you have to be VERY careful not to finish ToE a turn early or finish the other research a turn late. Catt

I've done this a couple of times. You get the tech before you get ToE, so you can get 3 techs on one turn. If your going to finish ToE before you finish researching your next tech, turn the science slider all the way collect gold and then use ToE to get your tech. This works best if you make this determination before you select your next tech to research, you can get rich quick and not waste any gold on research.

	07-08-2002 23:42									#16
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alva,

A little American slang phrase. Translation: You are poor. (24g, -18/turn).

-Arrian

	08-08-2002 00:50									#17
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Usually punctuated.

You is po'

	08-08-2002 00:59									#18
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I can't afford the apostrophe!!!

	08-08-2002 01:09									#19
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Let alone the "or."

-Arrian

	08-08-2002 02:08									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian It would appear I was wrong. Not the first time, not the last, that's for sure. I've always timed it so that I get a tech, then have 1 turn at 100% tax while ToE finishes. But if I'm already rich, I've been wasting a turn. *Arrian's knowledge grows* Excellent, Smithers -Arrian p.s. Theseus, my friend, you is po!

Me too! I usually start a pre-build for ToE and can't always time it "just right," but have grown accustomed to having at least 1 and sometimes 4 (!) turns of zero science in order to boost my treasury (often in the expectation of upgrading riflemen / pikemen to infantry and/or cash-buying factories. When faced with "research in four turns and complete ToE in four turns" I'll now go ahead with the research - in the past I would set research to zero and hoard gold or delay ToE by a turn.

Catt

	08-08-2002 02:24									#21
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Theseus, I often find myself in a similar predicament. I always find myself trying to get Atomic Theory 1 turn before I finish ToE. I've even gone so far as to have my Cavalry piliage my improvements to slow-down ToE. However, if what Catt and Alexman say about nbarclay's observations, then you should be able to finish ToE the same turn as Atomic Theory. I've never wanted to chance it. I shall try it at the next opportunity.

Safe Approach: try and get as much gold as possible for the next 2 turns and slow Beijing by 1 turn. As soon as you finish ToE (and get Electronics), change Beijing to Hoover.

Risky? Approach: Speed up Shanghi by 1 turn, get 3 techs the next turn and switch Beijing to Hoover.

Regardless of which choice, GET SOME GOLD MAN!!!!

Also, I don't know how far ahead you are in techs, but generally I find that the AI(s) tend to research the 'middle branch' (Refining, Steel, Mass Prod., Combustion, etc.). Try to get (buy, steal, bully) as many AI techs as you can the turn before ToE. That way you won't have to research as many. I usually wind up w/ Electronics and either Mass Prod., or Mot. Transp. from the ToE. Then I stop trading for awhile.

It's about this time in my games that I start whooping-up on the AI w/ Tanks!

Edit: Spelling Correction.

Last edited by steven8r on 08-08-2002 at 02:29

	08-08-2002 03:24									#22
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You nailed... that's why I was broke: I had spent every dime I had to reach tech parity up to Atomic Theory.

It worked great... within a couple of turns I was raking in around 1000 gpt.

	08-08-2002 03:51									#23
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Theseus, It's too bad you don't have the switched situation: Beijing (capital, first city founded) will be the first to finish its production, followed by Shanghai. If it would be the other way around (i.e. Beijing building the ToE, Shanghai prebuilding the pentagon), you could accelerate both cities...
First you research atomic theory, then you build the ToE in Shanghai, go into city view, use your arrows to get to Shanghai, change the build order there to Hoover, exit the city view, and the game continues without building the Pentagon. I do this quite a lot when it gets too close. Similarly, you can do this from the F1 screen (so you don't have to scroll through your cities) when you discover a new tech.

It's similarly too bad that both wonders do not take the same amount of shields, or you could switch them using a palace in Shanghai.

And lastly, if you are starving just to time it, it is too bad you didn't ask this question a few turns earlier, as you could have switched then, prebuilding a palace in Shanghai (if your palace costs more then 400 shields, of course), timing to get the ToE in Beijing (which looks like the less productive city of the two), and switch your palace to Hoover... this might have netted you a few turns on Hoover. And the Pentagon could have been build by one of your lesser cities

If only there was a way of switching the order in which cities' production is finished, instead of going from oldest to youngest...

DeepO

	08-08-2002 10:38									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian It would appear I was wrong. Not the first time, not the last, that's for sure. I've always timed it so that I get a tech, then have 1 turn at 100% tax while ToE finishes. But if I'm already rich, I've been wasting a turn.

Why bother writing my own post, when Arrian's fits perfectly for me, too...
Some fine pieces of knowledge in this thread. I especially like DeepO's trick to cut it VERY close...