08-08-2002 02:15									#1
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(I'd like to note one thing: there is no penalty for disobeying polls because the only possible penalty is impeachment anyway. Also, look at the asterisks.)

Constitution

Article I: Executive

Section 1: President and Vice President

(insert current description of President and Vice President)

Section 2: Ministers

The War Minister is responsible for all units except Workers.

The Domestic Minister is responsible for all Workers, the tax/sci/lux slider, which technology is researched, and city production.

The Foreign Minister is responsible for all trades, alliances, and treaties.

Section 3: Assistants

Generals (or Admirals) are appointed by the War Minister to a specific theatre and confirmed by the (pick one: Citizens/Legislature). They are responsible for and make the final decisions on all units except Workers and Settlers in the theatre that they are assigned to. The President may, however, make minor changes in unit movement do to unexpected circumstances.

Governors are appointed* by the Domestic Minister to a specific Province (call it what you want) and confirmed by the (pick one: Citizens/Legislature). They are responsible for and make the final decisions on all Workers and city production in their Province. The President may NOT make minor changes to these things because the sort of unexpected circumstance that would force a change would be grounds to halt the (pick one: turnchat/turnthread).

Ambassadors are appointed by the Foreign Minister and are not confirmed because all they do is give him information.

Article II: Judicial

(insert current description of the Court)

Article III: Legislative**

Section 1: Membership

All members of the Legislature must be Citizens. To become a membe of the Legislature, you must (pick one: have a certain number of posts per week allowing for vacations etc./post in a thread created for this purpose that you will be active for the following month). Each month new members of the Legislature are confirmed through a mass affirmation vote, which is a multiple-choice poll in which each potential member must have more than 50% of the voters vote for him (excuse my wordiness). Each month, a member of the Legislature may propose the removal of ONE other member. If this proposal is seconded, a vote is held in which (pick one: one half/two thirds) of the voters vote for the removal. EDIT: No member of the Legislature may hold an office in the Executive or Judicial Branch. To do so, they must resign from the Legislature.

Section 2: Code of Laws

The Code of Laws is a document, beneath the Constitution, which contains all laws deemed not of the sort to be put in the Constitution. To add or modify a part of the Code of Laws, a member of the Legislature (remind me to think up a good, original name for them) must propose the addition or modification and it must be seconded by another member. Then, it may be passed by a majority vote. Laws may be deemed unconstitutional by the Court.

Article IV: Elections

(insert current description of elections, except for the change in ministers)

*Considering that Governors are so powerful, we may just have them elected.

**This section is not an integral part of this proposed Constitution, so it may end up just cut out.

I have the feeling I forgot something. Please tell me what.

Last edited by Kuciwalker on 08-08-2002 at 02:29

	08-08-2002 02:16									#2
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Now, this is a lot shorter than the current Code of Laws, isn't it?

	08-08-2002 02:21									#3
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Sure, reducing our whole judicial system (about 1 page long) to "please insert current judicial system" makes things look shorter.
Completely forgetting poll rules too (and we need poll rules if we want to avoid chaos)

But there is one thing worth of interest in you text : it's how you integrated the Code of laws, different from the constitution.
I think we should simply write the outcome of official polls somewhere, and they remain valid until deemed obsolete.

	08-08-2002 02:24									#4
	Remove this text

Oops, actually I'd forgotten about the (insert...) stuff. You have a point there. However, I think it would still be shorter. Also, poll rules could be part of the Code of Laws. No need to put everything into the Constitution.

	08-08-2002 02:25									#5
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Good idea spiffor. How to do this and keep track of them all the time, could be a full time job.

	08-08-2002 02:27									#6
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Minor change made.

	08-08-2002 02:48									#7
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I'm against a good portion of this.

Firstly, there's not enough ministers. There's too much power in the hands of too few.

Secondly, especially with so few ministers, the governors must not be appointed. This -is- a democracy game, right? This also applies to Generals, and to a lesser extent, Ambassadors.

Thirdly, I oppose a legislature that leaves out the citizens. The citizens are quite capable of making decisions without a middleman.

	08-08-2002 03:00									#8
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Skywalker:
On the legislature: I don't see why make the porcess so complex for those to be eligable- the whole one must ask for another removed might create far too much antipathy and besides, many of those who apply might not want to run, and many of those who might want the job may not apply.

I agree with Darkness that there are simply not w enough elected officials for what needs to be a democracy game.

	08-08-2002 03:16									#9
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quote: "The Apolytonian Government is now despotism" "Banana proclaimed Great One"

Intelligence report - Civ2

	08-08-2002 03:21									#10
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For a long time, people said we need a "clerk" or something, who has no power at all on the forum, but who has to do all forum chores.
Some people argued it was the work of the VP. However, VPs can consider themselves as replacement for ministers, nothing more.

I think writing the constitution, updating the list of our government, writing the Code of Laws (seaprate from the const.) etc. should be given to someone who has time to do this, and wants too. It's not a too big job if you focus on it. It's a much bigger job if you must do it long plenty other things (like the Prez does)

Having a clerk would make my simple suggestion for a "CoL" viable.

	08-08-2002 03:58									#11
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The Legislature would be largely made up of the Citizens. The people who sign up and then never post or vote don't really count, in my mind. This just recognizes those who are active participants but not, under the current system, members of the government.

	08-08-2002 04:29									#12
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In Phoenatica, the legislative branch of the government is made up of the Congress, or ENITIRETY of the citizenry, and the senate, which is made up of provincial governors. We determine the number of active citizens during the presidential election. The total number of votes is considered the cencus of Phoenatica.

Just some hopefully helpful input.

	08-08-2002 06:42									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor For a long time, people said we need a "clerk" or something, who has no power at all on the forum, but who has to do all forum chores. Some people argued it was the work of the VP. However, VPs can consider themselves as replacement for ministers, nothing more. I think writing the constitution, updating the list of our government, writing the Code of Laws (seaprate from the const.) etc. should be given to someone who has time to do this, and wants too. It's not a too big job if you focus on it. It's a much bigger job if you must do it long plenty other things (like the Prez does) Having a clerk would make my simple suggestion for a "CoL" viable.

Clerk...well, I suppose I could assist there a bit. I already make a ton of links and make up stories, why not organize government while I'm bumping around their threads. The links are all kept in 'my notepad' so I would just have to cut/paste them into a directory thread.

	08-08-2002 07:29									#14
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I had conisidered making some of these changes, or bringing it up at least, so I will respond to skywalker's ideas. I like the idea of provincial governors, who are responsible for a certain region, with all of the units(all of them) there under their control during peacetime. However, during wartime the SMC would gain control of the military, and could have the prez appoint generals or admirals if necessary.

However, I find that there is at present no need for a legislature, as the population of the Civ 3 Demo game is not large enough at this point to warrant one. I happen to like our mix of Cabinent/presidential system of executive power, with the legislative power in the hands of the people. I did like however, the way that Skywalker thought the COL should work. That is, with a set down constitution requiring 2/3 vote to change and regular laws requiring a simple majority. I will be posting a pre-poll discussion on this, so check it out.

	08-08-2002 11:38									#15
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If its not broke, don't fix it.

	08-08-2002 12:35									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Octavian X In Phoenatica, the legislative branch of the government is made up of the Congress, or ENITIRETY of the citizenry, and the senate, which is made up of provincial governors. We determine the number of active citizens during the presidential election. The total number of votes is considered the cencus of Phoenatica. Just some hopefully helpful input.

Those are good ideas. But we should strive to fix our CoL, not get rid of it entirely and replace it. This is a powerful precedent of just getting rid of our temperment. Once we lose respect for our constitution, then it is worthless. This should be passed like an amendment or something to our present CoL, if anything is to be done at all.

	08-08-2002 12:43									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Octavian X We determine the number of active citizens during the presidential election. The total number of votes is considered the cencus of Phoenatica. Just some hopefully helpful input.

Unfortunately, such a plan has some hidden perils on this site.

Much better would be a formal list of electors (=citizens) linked to the ability to vote on this one forum. MarkG has hinted it may be possible.

The tricky part from there would be editing the join thread/member list if that ever became necessary. I do not believe it is necessary based on the recently revealed Presidential election voter register, but it may become needed in the future.

	08-08-2002 15:19									#18
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker The Legislature would be largely made up of the Citizens. The people who sign up and then never post or vote don't really count, in my mind. This just recognizes those who are active participants but not, under the current system, members of the government.

This is nonsense. You sign up as a citizen. You then have the right to post as little or as often as you choose. You can vote as little or as often as you choose. You can check the forum as little or as often. None of these things should in any way affect your rights as a citizen.

	08-08-2002 15:31									#19
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Agree Gillespie, this is the basis of democracy ; all activities allowed are not compulsory. But this is also simply the good understanding of how people and community work efficiently. The guy posting 10 times a day is not sure to be more useful for the game that the citizen observing and studying for 3 months before posting a brilliant idea.

	09-08-2002 03:53									#20
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Look, it works for Phoenetica. And the system is broken. This gets rid of the deadwood.

	09-08-2002 03:59									#21
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We are happy if Phoenetica is happy. But here, we are discussing of Apolytonia.

	09-08-2002 04:02									#22
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT We are happy if Phoenetica is happy. But here, we are discussing of Apolytonia.

oooohhhh....

	09-08-2002 04:05									#23
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DAVOUT - Phoenetica has already been through all of this. Why not save us the trouble and just do what they did?

	09-08-2002 04:17									#24
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Something to consider...

It is possible to change the laws in time for the new elections that are coming up. Otherwise, whatever changes we make would most likely take effect mid-September when the offices change again.

Is there enough public outcry with the current system to push forward IMMEDIATE CHANGES or will we be alright with taking a month or so to work out what is best for the nation?

--Togas

	09-08-2002 04:20									#25
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After the war with France, we need to stop and take a careful look at all of this.

	09-08-2002 04:29									#26
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker DAVOUT - Phoenetica has already been through all of this. Why not save us the trouble and just do what they did?

Except a blind acceptance of your words, which you cannot expect, we will have to collect, inquire, compare, analyse then prepare a synthesis. We are not exactly here to make savings but rather to organize by ourself an empire. In your empire, the work is already done ; no more fun.

	09-08-2002 04:31									#27
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I'm not in Pheonetica. I'm suggesting we use what has been shown to work. Why reinvent the wheel?

	09-08-2002 14:05									#28
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker Look, it works for Phoenetica. And the system is broken. This gets rid of the deadwood.

It's a nonsense. What possible effect will this have except to disenfranchise occasional voters/posters? You seem to be saying that if you're not posting a lot, and voting in every poll, your opinion is less valid. That's clearly nonsense.

	10-08-2002 00:52									#29
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I'm not saying your opinion is less valid. I'm saying that, to keep the game running smoothly, we need to be better organized. If you don't like using # of posts or something similar, then why not support the monthly confirmation post?

	10-08-2002 01:40									#30
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quote: Originally posted by mtgillespie It's a nonsense. What possible effect will this have except to disenfranchise occasional voters/posters? You seem to be saying that if you're not posting a lot, and voting in every poll, your opinion is less valid. That's clearly nonsense.

Actually, we could use the number that vote in the Pres election as a census number, that way you don't have to post or vote in anything else, just vote in the pres election to count. And instead of using it for keeping people out or in, we could use it to create a quorum number to use in deciding when a vote of something is valid.

For example: We set a quorum at 75% of the number of voters.
50 people vote for president. If we want to have a change to constit or impeach someone, then you need more than 37.5 (38 in this case) to pass change. What else this quorum could be used for, I'm not sure.

As for the Legislature, as skywalker mentioned it can be replaced by just citizens, so we could leave out the whole section on Legislature.

The revisions would possibly be shorter than current, but once you tack on the code of laws, then its going to get pretty long itself. I would again suggest changing those sections of current CoL and leave the rest intact by amendment instead of throwing the whole thing out and starting over. Again, look how long it took to get Impeachment up to a vote, and its not too short....

(oh and only 18 people have voted after 1 full day, so don't foget to vote...if you don't like it then vote no, but just please vote).