08-08-2002 19:26									#1
	Thinkers Guild : Which victory ? Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

From what we read in threads dealing of strategy, it appears that the type of victory is a late choice and often an opportunistic one. Nevertheless some players discard systematically one or several types of victory.

This observation raised two questions :

- in the case of a democracy game, gamers create an organization pursuing one aim : victory, but which victory ? Should not have been chosen from the very beginning the types of victory desired or accepted, and refused the others ? And if this has not been done yet, should not this choice be decided now, adding a feeling of unity to the community ?
- in the general case of the game, could an early choice of victory bring some light when alternative, and competing, strategies are possible ?

All comments appreciated.

Last edited by DAVOUT on 09-08-2002 at 19:54

	08-08-2002 19:40									#2
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I do believe that the the different political parties advocate different aims for victory. The Hawks f.ex. believe that we should go for a dominion victory, or being the only civilisation left. The DIA, being builders, probably advocate using higher production rate to win the space race. Then we the citizens of this fair land can influence this long-term goal by voting.

	08-08-2002 19:41									#3
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Good idea for a thread, DAVOUT. It's probably not to early to begin weighing this question -- although I hope discussion does not get too devisive.

Of course, we will need to remain flexible and open to developments. The map of possibilities before us is going to change repeatedly and continuously.

But my preliminary feeling, given the massive size of Abananaba and our central place on it, is that it's going to be difficult to achieve a space race, for example -- at least, not if we have rival civs on several sides.

Here's a related question: is Abananaba too big to conquer and hold until the Modern era? I assume it is. Then, how completely will we be able to dominate the continent, via vassalization and/or punishment of hostile rivals? We can all probably agree that we want to carve out a central slice. How big do you see our ideal borders getting, in the Medeival era, in the Industrial era?

Our ultimate victory gambit probably grows out of those kinds of questions.

	08-08-2002 20:20									#4
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A dominion or conquest victory wil have te be persued as a long term goal- unless we simply do, what for a dem game might be boring, a big final war push at the end. A cultural victory wold also call for long term planning, and might be utterly out of the question by now.

	08-08-2002 23:09									#5
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By now I believe a cultural victory is out of the question.

	08-08-2002 23:10									#6
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Also I want a domination victory.

	08-08-2002 23:40									#7
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hi ,

we should go for the "type" that we can have ASAP , if in the proces of going for one type we get victory by an other type , so be it

have a nice day

	09-08-2002 00:01									#8
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Interesting, being in the center of the continent like we are, probably dooms us to many a war. Still we should not close doors on any type of victory until we know its too late. As panag said, go for the quickest, which currently may seem to be Domination, but as we expand and increase Production, may turn out to be Space Race.

	09-08-2002 00:10									#9
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It looks to me that any kind of victory would be possible to us, given a commitment. The problem with a democracy is that they are aimless except in times of need; this favors the builders (space race, culture).

	09-08-2002 00:22									#10
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Is culture victory truly possible at this stage? I think space would be a good aim. It would leave plenty of room for wars for the warmongers, and lots of building infrastructure for the builders. With the Germans, Aztecs, and Persians on one border, you can bet there will be some wars. And we definately will need solid infrastructure to match them if and when they team against us.

I am flat out against UN victory for no special reason than I just don't like it.

quote: Here's a related question: is Abananaba too big to conquer and hold until the Modern era?

It *COULD* be done, but not easily, and not likely.

	09-08-2002 00:51									#11
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All of Abananaba could be conquered and held.

Space race is a good possibility.

I still culture is out of the question. Our best shot would have been generating 20,000 culture in one of our cities, but it is too late for that now I think since we don't have and probably won't build any of the ancient high culture wonders.

	09-08-2002 01:48									#12
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Dont you think that the traits of our civ have something to do with the quickest victory we can get ?

	09-08-2002 07:58									#13
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT Dont you think that the traits of our civ have something to do with the quickest victory we can get ?

Hmmm... Egyptians are religious and industrious.

Religious could help for a cultural victory, but it is probably too late for that, like many of you say.

Religious could also help in domination, but to a lesser extent. (The higher culture leads to higher chance of culture-flipping other civs cities.)

Industrious... well, I guess that could be helpful in Space Race or Domination.

Our traits don't clearly show what type of victory we should try to achieve.

	09-08-2002 09:43									#14
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D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-OMINATION-ATION-ATION-ATION-ATION.... G-G-G-G-G-ENOCIDE-CIDE-CIDE-CIDE OF ALL RACES NOT APOLYTONIAN-ONIAN-ONIAN-ONIAN

	09-08-2002 10:32									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Papa Chubby I do believe that the the different political parties advocate different aims for victory. The Hawks f.ex. believe that we should go for a dominion victory, or being the only civilisation left. The DIA, being builders, probably advocate using higher production rate to win the space race. Then we the citizens of this fair land can influence this long-term goal by voting.

Papa chubby is absolutely right. As long as we have a diversified public with different opinions were going to have diversified beleifs on what our aims should be. That is why we have a democracy. So we can hold public poll and get eveyones opinion and then take action by the voice of the people.

	09-08-2002 10:34									#16
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One more thing. I would like to become a member of the thinker guild.

	09-08-2002 11:04									#17
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quote: Here's a related question: is Abananaba too big to conquer and hold until the Modern era?

Not at all.

But if we do Conquer most of it (say 75%) we may win (is it Domination or Conquest that has a % of the world?), depennding on the size of other landmasses.

Also, if we had all that land, and developed it to a decent level, w'ed probably just ram through the rest of the Civs.


It wouldnt be hard to take over this continent, the hard part would be deciding in what order the civs fall to us

	09-08-2002 11:19									#18
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Domination Victory: 2/3 (two thirds) of the world's land must fall within our borders.

This can be done, even if it is harder than conquest (we just need to be last civ standing for conquest i.e. raze evryone basically). Commerical trait would have helped, but religeous will help a little. Abananaba is definately conquerable. As we assimilate our weaker enemies we become stronger, then we assimilate stronger enemies to make us stronger, then we assimilate even stronger neighbors and so on. We just need to create a nice cycle.

	09-08-2002 11:25									#19
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Why cutural victory is out of reach:

Cultural Victory: Civ must have either one city with [/b]20,000 culture[/b] points or a total cultural value of 100,000.

Without any of the big-culture early wonders, we are likely not to fill either of these requirments (one of the reasons I advocated building the Great Library).

I still support massive cultural bombardment of our close neighbors though. Look up my War Academy Thread on Temples for more on this domination strategy.

	09-08-2002 20:03									#20
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quote: Originally posted by carpathia One more thing. I would like to become a member of the thinker guild.

You are, carpathia. List of staff members edited.

	09-08-2002 20:38									#21
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IMHO, victory is victory. I'd go for either space race, diplo, or conquest. Cultural is probably impossible now, and as for domination... actually, we may well get that on the way to conquest victory

As Uber said, the only real decisions regarding conquest we may have to make are which civs go under first.

(Can I be in the Thinkers' Guild, also? )

	09-08-2002 20:47									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Vlad Antlerkov (Can I be in the Thinkers' Guild, also? )

You are, Vlad. Staff members list edited.

	10-08-2002 14:47									#23
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quote: Originally posted by GoodFella All of Abananaba could be conquered and held. Space race is a good possibility. I still culture is out of the question. Our best shot would have been generating 20,000 culture in one of our cities, but it is too late for that now I think since we don't have and probably won't build any of the ancient high culture wonders.

hi ,

indeed it could be done , but not ALL , we should leave one small place , and even give them a second place or so later on , they can become a trade partner , we could sell old tech , and so on , we should get some money out of them in the long run

have a nice day

	10-08-2002 18:12									#24
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quote: Originally posted by panag indeed it could be done , but not ALL , we should leave one small place , and even give them a second place or so later on , they can become a trade partner , we could sell old tech , and so on , we should get some money out of them in the long run

The problem with that is if they only had one or two cities, they wouldn't be making any money, so they wouldn't have any, so it would be beneficial to totally kill them instead of letting them live. And by then, we will probably know where the other civs are anyway.

	10-08-2002 19:48									#25
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Spaceship is the way to go !
Do we want the historians to remeber us as the worse barbaric and genocidal people who ever existed, or do we want the world to be in awe with our science and enlightement ?

	10-08-2002 19:50									#26
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if we win by conquest/domination, then wouldn't we be the best barbaric and genocidal people who ever existed?

	11-08-2002 00:47									#27
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No no. Just the most dominant.

	11-08-2002 02:06									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Jonny The problem with that is if they only had one or two cities, they wouldn't be making any money, so they wouldn't have any, so it would be beneficial to totally kill them instead of letting them live. And by then, we will probably know where the other civs are anyway.

hi ,

they would make enough money to pay us , ....

the "AI" always finds money , .....

later on we could even allow them to have two or three cities , and we could go to war with it ones in a while , to make great leaders , and to get elite units , .....

there are loads of reasons to keep them small and under control , .....

héhéh , .....

have a nice day

	11-08-2002 09:59									#29
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I vote for barbaric and genocidal.

	18-08-2002 01:09									#30
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No consensus. Surprising ?

The diplomatic victory is not mentioned at all, except by Espitax who says he dislikes it absolutely !
The conquest is not recognized as possible (or acceptable?) but by Vlad.
Several posters consider that the cultural victory cannot be contemplated at this stage, but two others do not exclude it absolutely.
That leaves two types of victory considered as possible (and acceptable?) : Domination and the Space Race . Although the traits of our civ appear to facilitate the Domination, the majority would be happy with the Space Race which is also made easier by the trait Industrious.

There is a significant party (the pure gamers ?) which just want The Victory, whatever is the type, but ASAP. It is a logical attitude in a game which ends with a score heavily loaded by the date of the victory ; we could however questioned the relevance of the score in a demo game.