08-08-2002 23:28									#1
	Is the Great Library Useless? Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I am a newb at this game, so forgive me if I am dregging up ancient history here. But I have been playing a number of games on Regent lately. I finally got a Leader and was able to finish a wonder before the AI. I built the GL and assumed that I would ride the surf wave of technology straight to the industrial era. I made that assumption because I was always about two techs behind the AI, no matter how much I concentrated on science. Anyway. I built the GL, cranked my science way down so I could rush built city improvements and waited for the techs to pour in.

I waited and waited and waited. Lo and behold the AI seems to have stopped research. I think I have gotten maybe three improvements in the 500 years since I built the GL.

Now, I am not the suspicious type. Strike that. I *am* the suspicious type. It sure seems as though the AI stopped even trying to develop tech once I got the GL. It's not like they have a ton of gold either. Does the AI perform a lobotamy on itself once you get the GL?

	09-08-2002 00:17									#2
	Re: Is the Great Library Useless? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by tatterdemalion I am a newb at this game, so forgive me if I am dregging up ancient history here. But I have been playing a number of games on Regent lately. I finally got a Leader and was able to finish a wonder before the AI. I built the GL and assumed that I would ride the surf wave of technology straight to the industrial era. I made that assumption because I was always about two techs behind the AI, no matter how much I concentrated on science. Anyway. I built the GL, cranked my science way down so I could rush built city improvements and waited for the techs to pour in. I waited and waited and waited. Lo and behold the AI seems to have stopped research. I think I have gotten maybe three improvements in the 500 years since I built the GL. Now, I am not the suspicious type. Strike that. I *am* the suspicious type. It sure seems as though the AI stopped even trying to develop tech once I got the GL. It's not like they have a ton of gold either. Does the AI perform a lobotamy on itself once you get the GL?

So far I've had really good luck with the GL. I usually go straight for literiture so I can get it. Depending on the game sometimes I only get two or three techs, on average I'd say I get four or five techs from it, I've gotten as many as 12 or 13 techs in one game where I had a crappy start position and didn't find four of the other civs in the game until one turn before I got education and they where all almost ready to go to the next era.

	09-08-2002 00:23									#3
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The GL rocks. In fact, I even started a thread on why I love it so much (check it out).

In one game, I went from just having 5 techs to actually moving to the Middle Ages in just 2 or 3 turns, thanks to the GL!

	09-08-2002 00:41									#4
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In a word, no. It's one of the best in the game.

Well, it's largely useless on chieftain & warlord. It's useful on Regent. Very useful on Monarch and above. This is due to the fact that the human has a research advantage on the lowest levels, parity at Regent, and is at a disadvantage above that.

I've not noticed the AI slowing its research down because the GL has been built. Not at all. Perhaps the AI's in your game got into a big war? That will hurt the tech progress rate. Also, you cannot ride the GL into the industrial era because it becomes obselete with education, which is 1/3 of the way into the middle ages.

How many civs do you have contact with? The more the merrier! Things slow down when you only know 2 or 3 civs.

By the way, it's not a bad thing if you haven't gotten that much tech from the Library... the AI is backward and poor. You're backward and rich. Use that money you're raking in to rushbuild improvements and such. You could also use it to support a large army and go bonk some heads

-Arrian

	09-08-2002 02:01									#5
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thanks! These replies are useful. Didn't know the GL expired with Education. That's ...... quick.

	09-08-2002 02:13									#6
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Tatterdemalion,

It was very quick, but the 1.29 patch has slowed things down a bit, and the GL is more powerful because of it.

The ability to run 100% taxes for 1/2 an age (late ancient/early medieval) is pretty powerful.

-Arrian

	09-08-2002 03:11									#7
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Built it for the first time last night. Received about 6 techs in 30 turns or so. Compare this to ToE where you get only 2 techs for free and it stacks up pretty well. Running 100% tax for the best part on an age doesn't hurt either.

	09-08-2002 03:46									#8
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Great Library is pretty good on emperor and deity level. I don't like using it on monarch because I can usually get a tech lead by the middle ages, but on higher levels the AI advances fast enough. I only build it if I get a leader (but I build Forbidden Palace first), and it's really difficult to build on deity unless you shoot right for it off the bat. Problem with that approach is you can end up neglecting expansion and warfare which is so critical in gaining you size and tech parity on the high levels.

	09-08-2002 11:30									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

One reason I always try to get GL is to deny it to the AI! The consequences of one AI civ getting techs for free can be annoying to say the least!

	09-08-2002 17:43									#10
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On higher levels the AIs get the techs at cut-down prices anyway. The other AIs sell things to each other much cheaper than they do to the human.

	09-08-2002 19:00									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

The Great Library is one of the (if not THE) best Wonders to build in the Ancient Age.

If you are not getting many advances from it, build more boats and go out looking for more civs. Every time you meet someone you will gain a tech from them (that you don't already know).

One thing that I've noticed, though, you have to meet the civ, then wait 1 turn to get their techs. You probably won't get any of their techs right as you meet them.

I've noticed in one game that I was able to research something, then on that same turn, I was able to sell that tech TO the civ w/ the Great Library!!!!! The key (if you want to keep the AI from doing this) is do not purchase/trade techs from the AI if you've got the GLib. Just wait 1 turn and you will have it anyway.

On a side note: I've also noticed that I have been able to sell Monotheism, Nationalism, and Rocketry to 'Scientific' civs! Mwu Haa Haa Haa!
"All your gold are belong to us!!!!!
You just have to sell them the techs while still in the Diplomatic Window. For example: Greece is behind you in techs and it is (for him) late Middle Age. You can sell Alex Flight and Magnetism--relitively cheaply, then turn right around that same turn and sell him Nationalism.
Mwu Haa Haa Haa!

	13-08-2002 23:06									#12
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Tatterdemalion,

Once you have the GL, make sure you have contact with every civilization possible since you only get what 3 other civ's already have discovered/traded. Buying and selling contact is another nice cash cow as well.

D.

	13-08-2002 23:22									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

You get what any 2 civs you have contact with know, not three. Of course, the more civs you know, the better.

Even in isolation it can be useful, however, provided you don't wait TOO long to make contact. The GL remains in effect until the turn AFTER you get Education. Thus you can get techs past Education from the GL. Of course, it's better not to fall so far behind in the first place.

-Arrian

	14-08-2002 22:17									#14
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I think that the GL is probably the worst wonder to spend early shields on. I would rather have the pyramids. It is all really a give or take on how you want to play the game anyway. I don't mind buying my techs and would rather not build something that expires so soon, haven't played with 1.29 though.

I think the original poster is having problems because they don't know enough people. Were I to build the GL I would get to know everyone quickly before building the library. Also, trade all your techs away as soon as you get them so that you can get more civs with techs you have so they can research the techs you don't have. (Make sense?) You can get a lot of free crap this way too... and that is the real advantage of the GL not to be one the most three technologically advanced civs, but to be the wealthiest and most liked civ...

	16-08-2002 17:46									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I like the GL, if you've made contact with few other Civs if an easy way to keep up with them. Because they always trade techs with each other. Is there a way to reduce that?

	16-08-2002 18:32									#16
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Yes, there is a way to reduce it. Well, first of all, the 1.29 patch reduced it indirectly by making techs more valueable (less depreciation, I think). But I digress... the AI to AI trade rate should be in the editor (not sure where, I've never touched it). If you want the AI to trade with itself the same way it trades with you, set it to 100 (the chieftain default).

-Arrian

	17-08-2002 04:36									#17
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The GL is very powerful in most games, but not in all. If you only have contact with 2-3 pathetic civs, then the only reason to build the GL would be to to deny it to others (and get culture). In all other games, it really rocks!

	18-08-2002 02:36									#18
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GL is alright, but usaly by the time I get it up, I'm not that far from education anyway.


When I do get it, I don't cut down on science, because I still want to resaerch somthing other then what the other civs are going for.

	18-08-2002 22:29									#19
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hi ,

nope the GL aint useless , in fact you can use it to spend your money on troops and walk around a bit , ....

have a nice day

	19-08-2002 10:29									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I prefer to let the AI build it. Then I capture it-- this way you can get techs even beyond Education. Don't research Education if you're planning to capture it (doh@!)

	20-08-2002 00:00									#21
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by playshogi I prefer to let the AI build it. Then I capture it-- this way you can get techs even beyond Education. Don't research Education if you're planning to capture it (doh@!)

So if you capture this after you research Education, it will still work?

Or did I miss somthing?

	20-08-2002 00:22									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Thrawn05 So if you capture this after you research Education, it will still work? Or did I miss somthing?

I suspect playshoggi was referring to capturing it before you discover Education, but after many AI civs do. If you are a seriously backward civ (say still in Ancient Ages when AI's are nearing end of MIddle Ages) and you capture the GL, you will (assuming contact with lots of AI civs) get a significant rush of technology discovery on your next turn. This technology rush will often take you up to and through Education -- it seems that the GL effects become obsolete after the discovery of Education, but that you can discover every tech that 2 known civs have on the same turn as the GL becomes obsolete, regardless of the fact that you discovered Education in that same turn.

I've personally gotten techs beyond Education (like Astronomy) and have heard tales of getting techs up to Magnetism / Military Tradition.

Catt

	21-08-2002 15:06									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Catt I suspect playshoggi was referring to capturing it before you discover Education, but after many AI civs do. If you are a seriously backward civ (say still in Ancient Ages when AI's are nearing end of MIddle Ages) and you capture the GL, you will (assuming contact with lots of AI civs) get a significant rush of technology discovery on your next turn. This technology rush will often take you up to and through Education -- it seems that the GL effects become obsolete after the discovery of Education, but that you can discover every tech that 2 known civs have on the same turn as the GL becomes obsolete, regardless of the fact that you discovered Education in that same turn. I've personally gotten techs beyond Education (like Astronomy) and have heard tales of getting techs up to Magnetism / Military Tradition. Catt

hi ,

indeed it could give us a certain tech lead , to a certain limit , but it would be smart to use it

and yes you can get to military tradition with problems

have a nice day