09-08-2002 02:40									#1
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How do you move units in this game? Is it like civ3 or more like homeworld?

	09-08-2002 02:41									#2
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In all the screenshots all you see is planets, is there a universe overview map?

	09-08-2002 04:34									#3
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Check out this screenshoot from the ones that just got posted. It looks like a typical MOOx universe map to me, complete with stars named and unnamed, ships, and what appear to be warp lanes if I'm not mistaken.

I'm not sure what more you could ask for at this point.

	09-08-2002 21:44									#4
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Thx... I didn't see that.

	10-08-2002 05:01									#5
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Warp Lanes ala Ascendancy? Where you must travel only in lanes?

	10-08-2002 06:33									#6
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Sure seems that way. I think it's cool, actually. Finally some positional strategy as well.

	10-08-2002 08:23									#7
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Well actually vmxa1 I think that you may move in both ways...

That is you may move through star lanes "a la Ascendancy" or you may travel "off road" (i.e. the normal MOO way.)

However I think that star lane travel has some advantages over off road travel... just don't know what they are


Maybe they are faster?

	10-08-2002 15:58									#8
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Manipulating starlanes was one of the few truely interesting aspects of SE IV. Pity the AI didn't get it.

	11-08-2002 04:41									#9
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I only played 3-4 games of SE4, but in SE3 I had the AI create worm holes in my system and come through. I had to keep a ship around to close them. The lanes in Ascendancy were true lanes and could be seen on the map. I had to create a planto get ships to show up in a given system at the same time if it was far away and the ships were scattered around.

	11-08-2002 07:17									#10
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Ah, Ascendancy! Now there was a great concept with a horrid execution. As for SE IV, yes, the AI would occationally create warp lanes, but it was very easy to guess when and where, so it wasn't much of a problem.

	11-08-2002 07:24									#11
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Two issues for me were/are too much micromanagement and combat had to be done in tactical or you could take loses. The comabt was tedious if you had good size fleets as you have to do all of the moving. If you had missiles, you had to stay out of range of beamers.

	11-08-2002 17:02									#12
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Yeah, MM was the bane of SE. I positively hated the "fuel clerk in space" parts of the game. The abstracted Moo range (stupid as it is, at times) is so much better from a gameplay perspective.

	11-08-2002 21:33									#13
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Quantum Reactor my friend.

	11-08-2002 22:32									#14
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To little, too late. (Well, at least too late )

	12-08-2002 19:30									#15
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Hmm,

I did not have too much of a problem with the fuel thing in SEIV. The missle dance in tactical combat showed a gapping hole in the AI.
Also I thought that fighters were an exploit since they cost no maintenance. So to pound the ai you went from missle boats to carriers.

	12-08-2002 19:44									#16
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Here's the semi-official answer. The only disclaimer is that things may have been simplified without my knowledge, but I doubt that's the case with respect to space travel.

First, remember that there are 3 kinds of vessels:
Starships -- can move between systems
System ships -- can only move within a system (both during and outside of combat, to my knowledge)
Orbitals -- cannot move during combat; MAY be able to move within a system outside of combat

System ships were originally going to be able to move offroad (as in, not using jump lanes), and would be able to use jump lanes once "Star Gates" or the equivalent technology was developed. I believe this is no longer the case; system ships are deployed within the system they're constructed within, and that's it. (Personally, I'd like a "ferry" class starship to move them around, but I'm not holding my breath.)

Starships can move through jump lanes (at a speed based on their jump drive technology and the star lane's quality). They can move directly from a system to another as "off-road" movement (again, at a speed based on engine tech). I suspect engine tech is in only 2 categories now -- jump-drive and "combat speed", rather than having a separate "off-road" speed category, but that's speculation.

Starships are grouped into task forces, and these task forces are the units you move about the galactic map outside of combat. These are also the units you place at the start of combat; I believe local system ships, if any, are lumped into additional task forces for combat, and each orbital is probably accounted as its own task force (unit) for combat.

As far as I know, you will NOT be able to move system ships from the system in which they are constructed. I'm almost sure that's true for orbitals as well; the only issue is whether or not there is any provision for "ferrying" system ships or orbitals from one system to another or not. I suspect not; that's probably been deemed too complicated gameplay-wise even though it might make lots of sense strategically (who wants high-volume shipyards at a border system? Not me...).

I think that about covers it...

	12-08-2002 19:54									#17
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Ack, I forgot the supply/fuel issue.

Ships that can travel between systems can go as far as you want.

HOWEVER, their supply cost is based on how far they are from the nearest supply point. So, you won't be able to operate a large fleet far from home, at least not for very long.

I've heard rumors that the system is being simplified (or at least abstracted) -- so I can't really say with any authority what establishes a "supply point" as above. To compare with MOO2, your range was based on your fuel cell technology, and you could travel that far from the nearest colony or outpost.

I think the goal was for MOO3 to not have a colony be immediately accounted as a supply point (you'd have to build a shipyard or some such tech), and I'm sure a military outpost counts as a supply point, for example.

I think the system is based on how many jumplanes separate the ship and the nearest supply point; and of course, I think the "shortest path" has to be friendly-controlled, so if there's a supply point is only 2 systems away by jump lanes, but one of the systems between is under enemy control, you might have to trace a 3 or 5 system path back to friendly space. Makes me wonder what happens to fleets that are completely cut-off...

	12-08-2002 21:07									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Xentax Makes me wonder what happens to fleets that are completely cut-off...

I should hope what normally happens to units that are completely cut off from their supplies. They last a few turns, then they have to surrender, self-destruct, or just plain disappear.

	12-08-2002 21:51									#19
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Ships in SE are stranded if they are out of fuel and supply depots need to be build for refueling until you get a quantum reactor, which allows freedom from fuel concerns. A racial trait allows extra range.
In Stars!, ships can still move once out of fuel, but only one parsec per turn. You are allowed to add fuel ships to a fleet to increase range. They also have a concept of engine speed vs fuel use. A fuel mizer engine can go forever at low speed and ram scoops gather some fuel in space.

	12-08-2002 22:28									#20
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Xentax, thanks for the rundown. You're proving to be a veritable fountain of information! I kinda like what I hear about the battle stuff. Fueling does seem to have the potential of becoming a SE-style MM chore... we'll see.

	13-08-2002 03:22									#21
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Ships in SE are stranded if they are out of fuel and supply depots need to be build for refueling until you get a quantum reactor, which allows freedom from fuel concerns. A racial trait allows extra range. In Stars!, ships can still move once out of fuel, but only one parsec per turn. You are allowed to add fuel ships to a fleet to increase range. They also have a concept of engine speed vs fuel use. A fuel mizer engine can go forever at low speed and ram scoops gather some fuel in space.

I thought that ships in SE4 would move one spce when out of fuel too. Also you could add that ship to a fleet with fuel and it would have the resources of the fleet. I ended up making tenders for long range missions just like real life.

	13-08-2002 04:07									#22
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True SE3 ships can move 1 per turn, can't recall in IV.
In Stars! I will use super tankers to augment movement by not running out of fuel and they improve the repair rate as well. You can randevous with a stranded fleet to put it back into play as the fuel is fleet wide. In stars you need to watch out for splitting such fleets that one of the ships does not end up with low fuel. I do not compalin about this function as it is a strategic element. You do have to pay attention, but it is not much work. In SE it means making a fueling station first thing.

	14-08-2002 19:24									#23
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quote: Originally posted by moomin Xentax, thanks for the rundown. You're proving to be a veritable fountain of information! I kinda like what I hear about the battle stuff. Fueling does seem to have the potential of becoming a SE-style MM chore... we'll see.

I don't think you'll ever strand ships in MOO3 -- you just might bankrupt yourself if you don't bring back a task force far from home soon enough.

I think, unlike previous games, you won't automatically start losing units just because you're running in debt. You might choose to disband units to recover/save money, but I don't think the game will scrap things for you (like it would in Master of Magic, for example).

	15-08-2002 19:32									#24
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Interesting. It sounds like the sort of concept I am going to either love or hate. I've been pushing for some form of abstract supply rules in Civ games to prevent the whole map being explored by stone age units. Having it get more expensive the further away they get doesn't sound quite right unfortunately, unless it is more of a set scale of mothballed/guard duty/active duty/battle stations where any movement outside your sphere of influence nets a fixed penalty. Beyond that, you either have the supplies to keep going or you don't.

	16-08-2002 10:58									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Grumbold ...Having it get more expensive the further away they get doesn't sound quite right unfortunately...

Well, in my opinion it does make sense. Further away your fleets travel the longer the supply line will be and thus more expensive to maintain. With fixed cost it would be same to attack core worlds instead of heavily defended resource poor border worlds.

	16-08-2002 18:57									#26
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It depends on the technology used in the ships.

What supplies do you need?

You can have a power source so powerful it can last for years (dilithium etc) or so plentiful it can be harvested regularly (fission/fusion ramscoop,gas giant 'mining'.) Likewise many futuristic weapons are forms of energy (lasers, plasma, disruptors) so they don't need to be manufactured and resupplied, they depend only on the energy source.

What is a supply "line" in space?

If the ship cannot travel from A-B on a "full tank of fuel" then it needs a tanker/resupply ship. If those are the source of its additional movement, they should be identifiable and targetable by the enemy, not an invisible additional cost. Where are these resupply ships when the warfleet stays close at home? Even if they are robotic so you can switch them off when they are not needed they will have a maintenance cost. MOO 2 had the freighters that absorbed part of your ship control capacity whether empty or full, for example. SE IV chose to have them all represented on the map. More micromanaging, but it did allow for such tactics as destroying the tankers to neutralise stranded warfleets.

You won't get that sort of strategy with some sort of sliding cash scale that just teleports whatever you need to you as long as you have the bucks to pay. For that to make sense you have to have some specific tech rules, for instance:

- teleportation is only reliable over long distances if you have a gate at the receiving end. Single point teleportation with no receiver is as risky as the dimensional gate games played in MOO2. So ships can't be teleported any significant distance across the map, they have to travel their under their own power. However if they have a gate device built into them, supplies can be beamed to them wherever they go.
- the energy cost of beaming supplies increases with distance
- the source of energy powering the beamers is valuable, so the cost is actually significant. You can't just park a gate in orbit next to a gas giant and have enough helium to power the fusion reaction to beam as much junk as you like.

quote: Further away your fleets travel the longer the supply line will be and thus more expensive to maintain. With fixed cost it would be same to attack core worlds instead of heavily defended resource poor border worlds.

Not entirely true. If you are travelling by wormhole, you will have to run the gauntlet of those outer defence worlds to travel toward the inner planets. Whether you travel by wormhole or by realspace you will also be travelling longer to reach the centre, so paying the cost for being on battle stations for longer. There is also the question of whether you are even allowed to travel all the way to the inner worlds. Many games (including MOO 1+2) directly limit how far you can travel from your nearest supply point with and without extended fuel cells.

	17-08-2002 04:29									#27
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Food is also a supply factor. At least it would be early in the game before replicator type technologies appear.

And yes, a starships probably would have some sort of garden or hydoponics facility. But that would only provide for fresh fruits and veggies. And maybe a bit of grains. Dunno how much though. Grains tend to take a lot more growing space to get usable volumes of the desired food item than fruits or veggies.

Meat however, if a society still eats meat, would need to be resupplied on occasion. How often that would be is a supply line factor.

Does make me wonder though, how the lithovores would deal with the food issue? I mean would they need a supply chain to keep them stocked up on the most tasty and healthful minerals and geolithic strata? Or would they just stop at the next planet when they run low and stock up?

And I think we can all guess how the Harvesters would deal with the food issue. Just makes me glad I'm sorta scrawny. Would take them forever to fatten me up.

	18-08-2002 02:16									#28
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What does SE stand for?

	18-08-2002 02:34									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Hagbart What does SE stand for?

Space Emire III or IV a game from Malfador Machinatons.

www.malfador.com

	21-08-2002 10:01									#30
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"Fuel clerks in space," hah hah! Great description. I've played with the demo many times, but I never got to turn 100 and felt a desire to fork out $42.95 to continue dragging population between colonies and fleets between supply depots.

quote: Food is also a supply factor. At least it would be early in the game before replicator type technologies appear.

quote: Ships in SE are stranded if they are out of fuel and supply depots need to be build for refueling until you get a quantum reactor, which allows freedom from fuel concerns. A racial trait allows extra range.

SE4 ships run on "Supplies," which apparently includes cheeseburgers and jolt cola. There is no sharing between ships. The whole fleet is limited to the slowest ship (which is speed=1 if out of Supplies). SE4 does have Solar Panels which add Supplies every turn you're in a system with a star. It is cheap tech available long before quantum reactors; I pity the fool who ignores it.

SE4 fuel use is 10 units per engine per sector, and movement is 1 sector per engine (plus bonus sectors for tech, etc). It isn't often you build ships with less than the max 6 engines so fuel use doesn't vary. It was the same in SE3 (which I also didn't upgrade from the unregistered shareware demo).

Supply is a real bugaboo in game design. Land units include thousands of personnel and hundreds of vehicles, so it can be assumed some of them are dedicated to supply tasks.

But ships inherently stradle the strategic-tactical divide. One ship is big enough to be a strategic unit, but it attacks and defends as a tactical unit. MoO2 had freighters but they only modeled intercolony supply. Had ships required freighter support it would have been a much better supply model.