09-08-2002 04:44									#1
	P4 annoucement : Morale Policy Inflate your Upload Space

I am making this announce to make sure the P4 is well understood.

Punition Sphere policy
We don't support Punition Sphere blindly. Here is our policy for it :

ONE base will be used as a high security jail for the most dangerous criminals. This base will have a punition sphere to ensure security in this jail. And it will especially serve as a mineral production base. With all this mineral, this base will be used to support a part or, if possible, all of our Air Force. Crawlers will be deployed to ensure the highest mineral production possible. The P4 isn't happy to make this jail but it is needed for our security because we don't think that our faction will be spared by violence and crimes. For sure, the P4 want and will do the all the things to prevent violence (distraction - high income for the people - education - no racial, political or religious discrimination) but we must be realistic on this point : A jail will be needed at a certain point.

War policy
The P4 support peace strongly as war would cripple our commerce income. Peace is the engine of a good economy and good conditions of life. It is also the engine of a free democracy.

In consequence, we are against any declaration of war.

Atrocity policy
The P4 also stands against atrocities. Genetic war, nerve stapling and uses of PB are completely out of agenda. Any decision toward the use of atrocities will be fought by the P4.

The only thing the P4 allows is the construction of PB but only for deterrence purpose and should never be used.

	09-08-2002 04:54									#2
	Re: P4 annoucement : Morale Policy Tired of ads?

I am making this announcement to make sure the CCCP is well understood.

Punition Sphere policy
We don't support Punition Sphere at all. See our atrocity policie for further details.
Repression is not the way to deal with criminals. They must be reeducated and reinserted into the civic life.

War policy
The CCCP support peace strongly as we all belong to mankind and are brothers.
In consequence, we are against any declaration of war. But we will not allow anyone to commit atrocities, and are therefore ready to declar vendetta upon such people who desnt deserve their humanity.

Atrocity policy
The CCCP also stands against atrocities. Genetic war, nerve stapling and uses of PB are completely out of agenda. Any decision toward the use of atrocities will be fought by the CCCP. We agree on that with the P4.

Note that we consider Punishment Spheres as atrocities, because it is not a human way to treat another human.

CCCP's policy about building but not using PB has to be discussed, but we obviously wont be nicely welcome by Planet if we come with PB in our hands.

	09-08-2002 05:25									#3
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quote: Repression is not the way to deal with criminals. They must be reeducated and reinserted into the civic life.

It is also the P4 policy but are you realist when you think that 100% of the criminals will be successfully reinserted ?

	09-08-2002 07:09									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Juliennew It is also the P4 policy but are you realist when you think that 100% of the criminals will be successfully reinserted ?

How can we call ourselves "humane", "democratic" and "peacekeeping" when we put criminals in a sphere and begin torturing them!?

	09-08-2002 07:16									#5
	Re: P4 annoucement : Morale Policy Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Juliennew Punition Sphere policy We don't support Punition Sphere blindly. Here is our policy for it : ONE base will be used as a high security jail for the most dangerous criminals. This base will have a punition sphere to ensure security in this jail. And it will especially serve as a mineral production base. With all this mineral, this base will be used to support a part or, if possible, all of our Air Force. Crawlers will be deployed to ensure the highest mineral production possible. The P4 isn't happy to make this jail but it is needed for our security because we don't think that our faction will be spared by violence and crimes. For sure, the P4 want and will do the all the things to prevent violence (distraction - high income for the people - education - no racial, political or religious discrimination) but we must be realistic on this point : A jail will be needed at a certain point.

Tell me...

This base has lots of crawlers crawling for Minerals.
Therefore, it hasn't got much nutrients.
If it hasn't got much nutrients, there won't be much population around.
And considering PKs get an extra talent for every 4 citizens, there won't probably be drones at all in this base.
So, pray tell, why build a Punishment Sphere in the first place?

Down with nerve stapling! Down with Punishment Spheres!

	09-08-2002 07:18									#6
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Julien: a conversation in the chat has revealed that a size 1 base with a specialist as its citizen would not need a PS to control pascifist drones caused by air units!

Houray!

	09-08-2002 08:55									#7
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Julienew,

Exactly when did this hard line against atrocities come into play? Not that long agao the P4 politica thread basically said yeah we should use them but sparingly. Another part said well at the very least develop them and have them on stand by. Now suddenly the official party line is zero use or tolerance? Leaves me wondering how much of this is political manuvering and how much is true conviction.

The Fundamentalist Faction has had from day one a ZERO TOLERANCE policy against atrocities in any form, and yes we consider the punishment sphere an atrocity.

The war ploicy of the Fundamentalist faction is also well know. We support peace first as the main option. We will do all within our power to find peaceful solutions. However is an enemy will not try peace and continues to attack us, then we support a massive, quick and successful strike against the enemy. All out war until the enemy returns to the peace table.

Peace is vital we all agree but only a fool will not defend himself. The best defense is a good offense, the key is learn how not to use that offense.

E.L. Crisler
Fundamentalist Faction

	09-08-2002 09:12									#8
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quote: Not that long agao the P4 politica thread basically said yeah we should use them but sparingly.

Does talking inside a political party is taken as an official stance ? No. We talked about atrocity policy and the party decided that there won't be atrocity at all. And me as a indivuality, I never supported atrocities.

But if you want to play this game

Here is that I saw in the fundamentalist thread :

quote: We acknowledge as Truth that the native life of Chiron is in a fallen state, and without the light of our Lord shining upon them they have been perverted and are an abomination in the eyes of God. This applies especially to those satanic "mind worms". It is a duty of every righteous man to rid this world of their plague, so that we may indeed transform this planet into a new Garden of Eden.

Is it your party's policy ? No, it was also during the debate of your policy. So please read the general party policy on the first post of our thread, not elsewhere. Thanks.
I don't like to play this kind of game because it doesn't help to credibilize political parties, so please stop and debate only on ideas, not on scandals.

quote: Another part said well at the very least develop them and have them on stand by

We were talking of PB ONLY. The P4 policy is to build PB for deterrence, not for use them. Nerve stapling and genetic warfare are banished from our policy.

quote: Leaves me wondering how much of this is political manuvering and how much is true conviction.

Where's the problem ? You are using rumors, not official stance of the P4.

	09-08-2002 09:24									#9
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Concerning the Punition Sphere policy, it could be reviewed if there are not needed at all. We need t odebate it between the members of the party.

Last edited by Juliennew on 09-08-2002 at 09:39

	09-08-2002 09:45									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Juliennew We were talking of PB ONLY. The P4 policy is to build PB for deterrence, not for use them. Nerve stapling and genetic warfare are banished from our policy.

And what about Planet Busters and Nerve Gas? These where the items I saw mentioned that where said to be created and held for what if.

Did not your own candidate for Commissioner say that he is a "strong believer" for building a stockpile of Planet Busters?

Did not your Commissioner Candidate and one of your parties leaders not say that the use of nerve stapling is okay if used during period of sunblock for communications?

In fact did not that same leader sya the the middle ground of building but not using the weapons of atrocities unless threatened was a good middleway policy?

In fact a leader of your party commented on how the Punishment sphere is a good item to have for warefare times and was a big reason he was NOT anti-atrocity?

When your party decided not to use Punishment spheres but build them anyway, not sure why you would do that, was not the idea of only avoiding atrocities while the charter in place not prosposed, in fact the only reason to wait that was forwarded by that person was to avoid economic problems.

Did you yourself not say that you favor building PlanetBusters as a political move?

Basically your whole party has looked at atrocities from the view point of what they might do if we are cuahgt, many of us do not do atrcoities because they are ATROCITIES!

You are correct P4 should be well understood. As for the comment my compatriot made, be sure to post the rest of the thread where he changed his position in favor of the party line. Plus at that time we where two and only one of us has been running for office.

I am not using rumors, I am using the words used by the members of P4.

E.L. Crisler

	09-08-2002 10:15									#11
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Crisler, I leave you with your useless debate ...
If I wanted to use what Leland said about Planet (Cf my last post), I could but I won't do because it is completely useless and it doesn't reflect your party policy. At your difference, we aren't single-minded and think that internal debate inside a party is very fruitful. But using this internal debate to decridibilize a party isn't very fairplay and I expected more wisdom from your part.

The official policy of the P4 is NO atrocities and UPHOLDING of the UN charter. Is it clear enough ?

For the people who wants to see what the P4 stands for and debate it wisely, look at the first post of our thread.

	09-08-2002 10:27									#12
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War policy
"The P4 support peace strongly as war would cripple our commerce income. Peace is the engine of a good economy and good conditions of life. It is also the engine of a free democracy. "

What are you crazy. Peace is not the engine of a good economy. What brought america out of the great depression in the fourties?

	09-08-2002 10:55									#13
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quote: What are you crazy. Peace is not the engine of a good economy. What brought america out of the great depression in the fourties?

One big difference, the war wasn't on the American soil. And what crippled the European economy in the 20's ?
IMO, it is completely off-topic.

	09-08-2002 18:01									#14
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quote: Originally posted by carpathia What brought america out of the great depression in the fourties?

Answer: a socialist policy: large government support, in this case in the military industry. A middleground between the ultra-right American policy of laissez-faire of the previous decades and the ultra-left Soviet policy of total state control. Balance between extremes is the answer! Flexibility!

	09-08-2002 18:02									#15
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I want to help julliennew here because the FF is talking rubbisch. Julliennew already said that you can not look at the thread as a official policy but only the first post. and about my strong believes in PB if you look at 20th centruy on Earth the only reason there was NO largscale conventional war between NATO and the Warschaupact is that they had a large stack of citybusters ready to fire. I belief that we can use this old earth habit as good as we use the old believes of earth. on the case op PS we have to dicuss that within our party. I belief this discussion wil benifit us all.

	10-08-2002 02:40									#16
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Okay, anti-atrocity morale knights from CDC and ACE, I have a question for you all.

Suppose our peaceloving faction is involved in a war started by those capitalist pigs of Morganites or those wretched unbelievers of Universitarians. Naturally they only agree to a peace treaty if we give them an impossible amount of money of 1600 credits. Note: there are 1603 credits on the government's energy bank account. Therefore it was decided that military action against the enemy was needed. We just captured a large enemy base, population size 13. Unfortunately our careless soldiers destroyed every anti-drone structure in the base in their understandable after-victory night party. The next morning we discover that the base will riot if we don't act. No less than 9 drones!! Too many to be countered by police units or rushing all kinds of anti-drone structures. The most obvious choice would be to recruit doctors/empaths to counter the drones. To do that however we need to take workers from the field. As a consequence there will be food starvation (a shortage of 10 food). Dear idealist CDC'er/ACEr, what would you do if you were Commissioner of the Peacekeeping Forces:


a) Give the enemy 1600 credits for peace. As a consequence of course our economy will be ruined and then our own one million PK citizens are defenseless against the belligerent Spartans at the other side of our little empire.
b) Recruit empaths. As a consequence of course 50000 people will die.
c) Initiate martial law and build a punishment sphere. As a consequence of course your "high ideals who I will always upkeep" will be damaged.

I'm looking forward to your answer.

M@ni@c
Member of P4, a realist centrist party

	10-08-2002 02:45									#17
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that's a good one. i'm interested to see what happens

	10-08-2002 02:46									#18
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Really an interesting question Maniac

	10-08-2002 02:49									#19
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C); and though I wouldn’t be the one making the decision, I’m going for science and so it doesn’t concern me really. And though the party and CDC are officially against Punishment Spheres as far as I know, I’m certainly not nearly as opposed to it as others might be.

(and I really don’t see what’s so wrong with using them, but again that is just me, and I’m not the one who makes the decisions)

	10-08-2002 02:50									#20
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i don't know the answer myself, but here's a screenshot to prove it can happen. notice nutrient production is 0.

Attachment: drones.gif
This has been downloaded 29 time(s).

	10-08-2002 02:50									#21
	Put an end to popups!

We can all play the "what if"-game, too bad I can't conjure up a scenario suiting my needs at the moment.

Anyways, like I've mentioned somewhere before, nerve stapling is an option in a severe crisis.
Also using colony pods and temporally increasing the psych rate could be used to help the situation.

One can also ask, WTF we were doing conquering that base in the first place; was it a necessary defensive action?

	10-08-2002 02:52									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Voltaire (and I really don’t see what’s so wrong with using them, but again that is just me, and I’m not the one who makes the decisions)

But... but... you would be committing an atrocity!

	10-08-2002 02:53									#23
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quote: Originally posted by M@ni@c But... but... you would be committing an atrocity!

Your point being?

(again I’m not part of the CDC or LSD morality-wing; research that’s what I’m in for)

	10-08-2002 02:54									#24
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quote: temporally increasing the psych rate could be used to help the situation

And cripple economy and research rate of our entire faction only to restore order in one base ?

	10-08-2002 02:58									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Voltaire Your point being? (again I’m not part of the CDC or LSD morality-wing; research that’s what I’m in for)

Hmm... I'm sure I could dig up official quotes from both the CDC and ACE coalitions that they will NEVER use atrocities, not even a single one punishment sphere. Such immoral deeds! I find it disturbing how easily you guys changed your mind on this matter.

	10-08-2002 02:59									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Juliennew And cripple economy and research rate of our entire faction only to restore order in one base ?

As Kass said nerve stapling is not out of the question in extreme circumstances, so why would building a Punishment Sphere be out of the question in this case???

	10-08-2002 03:00									#27
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quote: Originally posted by M@ni@c Hmm... I'm sure I could dig up official quotes from both the CDC and ACE coalitions that they will NEVER use atrocities, not even a single one punishment sphere. Such immoral deeds! I find it disturbing how easily you guys changed your mind on this matter.

Sure, be my guest...

	10-08-2002 03:01									#28
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quote: And cripple economy and research rate of our entire faction only to restore order in one base ?

Temporally, maybe, until we can reduce the pop by Colony Pods. Getting in to war and going around conquering big bases eventually cripples economy and research too, you know.

	10-08-2002 03:03									#29
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quote: so why would building a Punishment Sphere be out of the question in this case???

Because the official stance of the CDC seemed to be anti-PS, especially the CCCP.

	10-08-2002 03:03									#30
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quote: As Kass said nerve stapling is not out of the question in extreme circumstances, so why would building a Punishment Sphere be out of the question in this case???

Well the PS would have to be scrapped as soon as problems have eased off and we have shipped the dissidents away in CPs. I still prefer NS over PS to get the time to do this tho.