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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:21
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About all the guides, strats, and comments I've read on this site talked about mining the shielded grasslands(SG) asap, to have the best improvement possible. Further, a lot of worker AI whining came down to that fact that the AI will not focus on mining SG, but go for a checkerboard pattern of mines and irrigations in grassland.
Well, I just started this thread to give my opinion: mining SG is not an advantage after you get out of Despotism, is a small disadvantage when you have RRs, and is downright the worst option when you didn't had your GA yet or are planning on mobilization (after RRs).
First, in despotism, mining SG will mean that you can get 2 shields from grassland, which can't produce anything more with irrigation. Unshielded only gives 1 shield. Clearly it is a given that you should focus on mining SGs first.
But, after despotism, you do not want to have maximum shields from your mined SGs, but rather from hills or mountains nearby (if available, of course). You still want to improve your SGs first, but it is not necessary to mine a SG and irrigate a normal grassland instead of doing it the other way around, it will not give you any more shields. On the contrary, when you have hills, you want to mine these, and irrigate the SGs, this will give you more food so you can work the hill, while giving you an extra shield as well.
After RR, this last situation becomes more outspoken: you want to work all hills nearby, and the best way to do this is to put some of your grasslands on irrigation. Choosing your SGs for irrigation will mean there is plenty of food, while still providing one extra shield. If you make the comparison again of having 1 mined SG + 1 irrigated grassland against 1 irrigated SG + 1 mined grassland (all of them RRed), it will still give the same numbers. But whenever there is a choice, and a hill can be worked as well, the irrigated SG is favored over the mined one.
This would all be minor points, if it wasn't for the bonusses you get with a GA or mobilization. These two will add one shield to all worked tiles where shields are already present. So, if you have the two situations again; the mined SG + irrigated grassland will give 1 shield bonus, while the irrigated SG + mined grassland will give 2 shields bonus!
Conclusion: after you left despotism, and your cities have grown just a little so that a few tiles are worked, it is best to irrigate all the SGs (to the amount needed, of course), while mining all normal grasslands. This will give the biggest rewards in all cases.
Of course, this rule should be adapted when needed, and certainly for very small cities (size 1, higher if no hills are present) a mined SG is still a good thing, but once your cities have grown a bit it is worth it to try to use all SGs for irrigation, while mining all other grasslands.
DeepO
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Catt
I'll mine everything I can in the ancient age, but if a city later needs irrigation to grow, the shielded grasslands are the first to get irrigated. |
You word it better then I do, Catt. This is exactly my point...
quote:
There are a number of commonly accepted "rules of thumb" that run counter to smart gameplay; mining shielded grassland (as opposed to regular grassland?) is a great example. |
The reason why I started this thread is that I just read a comment of the strategy master Vel, in which he says the worker AI bothers him because they won't concentrate on mining shielded grassland... This might be a problem very early on (despotism), but after that, there is more chance that the AI with its checkerboard will be better off then the mining human. Of course, the terrain improving is something that the human can be a lot smarter about then the AI, but there are too many myths surrounding it. There is no definate answer, and everything will depend on the situation, but in general you have to make sure that you get the highest shielded tiles first, for which you need food to support them.
So for me, the priority order (after despotism) of tiles is like this: hills - shielded grasslands - flood plains - grasslands - plains - mountains - forests - tundra (sea and inner seas in special cases, like needing the commerce, or not having anything producing food in the vicinity). Irrigation or mining is a case-by-case question, but everybody will agree that you need as much shields as possible; food is only good to support the shields, and to let a city grow so that more shields are worked faster. So irrigation should be given to those tiles that already have some shields, being the shielded grasslands and the plains, and only after these 2 are not enough to have the food production needed you irrigate the normal grasslands.
Of course, other bonus resources can be seen in the same light: I will always try to mine wheat, wines, and game, while the shield producing resources (cow) are irrigated when food is needed.
DeepO
PS to alva: Deepo is the name of the pet 'concrete seagull'(?) (Dutch: betonmeeuw) of John Difool, from the Incal serie of Moebius. My nick is a tribute to Moebius, which I worship as the most influentual graphic artist of modern time 
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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:21
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Good thread! I'll play devil's advocate if I could, not because I think the logic in Deep-O's argument is bad, simply to put a different spin on it.
I nearly always mine shielded grassland for three principle reasons:
* Not much of it. Maybe 1-2 tiles per city (or maybe I'm just unlucky). Generally I do not have a sufficient number of shielded grassland tiles contained inside a single city's radius to generate a telling amount of food late game, if it was irrigated.
* Self imposed limits to growth - I don't like wampum big cities. Anything over size 20 is a waste (exception - if you use the mammoth city exploit, then specialists can generate obscene amounts of goods for you), given the lack of stuff that specialists produce, and I tend to shy away from having too many cities bigger than size 13 (too much pollution for me).
* Production is King - I want the maximum number of shields I can produce, for total squares worked. If, as Deep-O indicates, there are hills or mountains nearby, then my best move is to irrigate everything flat, up to the point where I can work all the hills and mountains in range and still feed everybody, and work those hills and mountains! On the other hand, if I have no hills to work, then my shielded grasslands represent my best bet for decent production.
'k...enough typing for me...I'm off to get some tea....try and jumpstart the ol' motor this morning....
-=Vel=-
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:21
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Vel, glad you like to play devil's advocate in this one, otherwise it wouldn't last for long I guess
So let me try to convince you:
quote:
Originally posted by Velociryx
* Not much of it. Maybe 1-2 tiles per city (or maybe I'm just unlucky). Generally I do not have a sufficient number of shielded grassland tiles contained inside a single city's radius to generate a telling amount of food late game, if it was irrigated. |
This is for me all the more reason why I want the irrigation here, instead of on normal grasslands. Of course, you need to have some kind of production providers, but if you irrigate any grassland, be sure it is shielded.
quote:
* Self imposed limits to growth - I don't like wampum big cities. Anything over size 20 is a waste (exception - if you use the mammoth city exploit, then specialists can generate obscene amounts of goods for you), given the lack of stuff that specialists produce, and I tend to shy away from having too many cities bigger than size 13 (too much pollution for me). |
This one I can understand. But it doesn't conflict the main point I'd like to get across: if you need food, irrigate SGs. They are better for this then the normal grasslands. If you don't need more food, by all means mine everything
quote:
* . . . On the other hand, if I have no hills to work, then my shielded grasslands represent my best bet for decent production. |
No it isn't, that's exactly the myth I'm trying to fight. normal grasslands are just as good as shielded ones for production, as long as you make sure that the shielded are worked. Mining and RR will give 2+ shields in both cases. And because of the possible bonusses from GA or mobilization, and the possible faster use of hills, forests, mountains, all irrigation should be done on shielded grasslands, instead of on normal ones. In fact, after RR I prefer to have irrigated plains while mining all grasslands, this will balance the shield outcome more.
Of course, as said before, there are situations that will call for another approach, but in general I will always try to have the shielded grasslands worked first, and use these for my food production, where other tiles can take care of my production. Unless of course you have flood plains nearby, or so many SGs that you just have to mine them 
DeepO
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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:21
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Ahhhh! I see what you're saying, and you're quite right! That's the rub for me though...."mining normal grassland is just as good, as long as you make sure the shielded grassland is worked." Its that last bit that smacks of too much MM for me. If it's six in one, half dozen in the other, so long as both are worked, that is.
See....to my way of thinking...in the early game (Despotism), those shielded grasslands are among my first targets to get mined. Once they are mined, even if I move to some other form of government, now I've gotta make a choice. Do I re-work a tile that already has an improvement on it, or do I work a new tile that I haven't gotten to yet? In almost every case, I'll work the new tile, thus putting rework on shielded grasslands very much on the back burner. Eventually, if there's a need to tweak and shift, I'll rework a few to tweak food production, but at that point (possibly dem, and post rr), my workers are on speed and can do it in a turn or two.
-=Vel=-
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Velociryx
Ahhhh! I see what you're saying, and you're quite right! That's the rub for me though...."mining normal grassland is just as good, as long as you make sure the shielded grassland is worked." Its that last bit that smacks of too much MM for me. |
Well... I hate micromanaging my citizens, and will only do it in problem cases. Normally, all my governors are set to manage moods (emphasing production). That's another reason why I irrigate shielded grasslands, these will be picked first by the governor. Otherwise you risk that the AI will pick irrigated unshielded grasslands, and you have no shields whatsoever. Further, having a little more irrigation than strictly needed will mean the governor goes for hills and mountains more readily, another advantage.
Of course, once your city bumps into a population limit (needing a aquaduct, hospital or reaching size 20), it is better to sack him, and do the managing yourself
quote:
See....to my way of thinking...in the early game (Despotism), those shielded grasslands are among my first targets to get mined. Once they are mined, even if I move to some other form of government, now I've gotta make a choice. Do I re-work a tile that already has an improvement on it, or do I work a new tile that I haven't gotten to yet? In almost every case, I'll work the new tile, thus putting rework on shielded grasslands very much on the back burner. Eventually, if there's a need to tweak and shift, I'll rework a few to tweak food production, but at that point (possibly dem, and post rr), my workers are on speed and can do it in a turn or two. |
True, but this I mentioned in the initial post. In despotism, you have to mine them. But really, I don't believe you don't start any new cities, or have every tile worked by the time you leave despotism, and for all of those it is worth it to do it right away. The biggest advantage of my approach is that GA/mobilization will give you more, and when the time comes of your GA, you want to have all tiles working at maximum capacity, so the shifting has to be done in front.
I try to follow the rule that whenever a tile you're working is not improved, you have too few workers, and should build one extra right away. If you do this, you normally don't have problems shifting the tiles you had to mine in despotism, for a standard map those might total to some 10 tiles at most... and shifting them early will mean you have a long time to enjoy the benefits, even if they are small advantages without a GA.
quote:
I usually take the opposite approach....I tend to specialize my tiles out as much as possible....regular grassland (non-bonus) doesn't produce any shields if its irrigated, so when I irrigate and RR it, it produces nothing but food and coin. I dunno....just makes it easier for me to tell "at a glance" what tiles are doing what. |
Specializing may make it more easy to spot the function of a tile, but this is about the only advantage it has. Balanced tiles are better pure efficiency wise. After all, there is no difference where you put a mine, it will give +1 shield on each possible tile. Similarly, irrigation will give +1 food on all tiles. And RR will add 1 to whatever improvement is there (the only exception being the cows and wheats, cows get +1 shield and +1 food, while wheat will get +1 food and +1 shield when mined). Again, the GA and mobilization is when you see the biggest advantages, but also wihtout this it pays off to have more balanced tiles, you can have more food to be able to work hills while still getting the bonusses from the shielded grasslands.
quote:
Originally posted by steven8r
Then, once my cities reach a sufficient size (I too, prefer smaller sized cities) to need more food, I will then irrigate-starting w/ the SG's. |
steven8r, consider this: if you have a hill nearby, you have an advantage of using a mined SG when you're city is below size 2! So at most, you'd need one mined SG, when the city reaches size 2 it is better to have an irrigated SG + a mined hill worked. In hill country (something the occurs frequently in the neighbourhood of SGs), the advantages of irrigated SGs will be biggest.
DeepO
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:21
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Yeah, I think that's really the point - in your GA or mobilization:
mined shielded grassland - 3 shields, 2f
mined normal grassland - 2 shields, 2f
Irrigated shielded - 2shields, 3f (4 w/rr)
Irrigated normal - 0 shields, 3f (4 w/rr)
So, if your city is in need of an irrigated grassland tile, it's best to go with the shielded b/c you will net 3f, 2s (4/2 w/rr) from it and 2f, 2s (2/3 w/rr) from a normal one, adding up to 5f, 4s (6/5). If you did it the other way 'round, you would get 5f, 3s (6/4). During a Golden Age or using Mobilization, that is. However, I think the key thing to remember here is that we are discussing a difference of one shield.
-Arrian
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:21
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First of all, indeed this becomes more clear when you are in a GA or mobilization. Arrian, you are very right that for the combination of a shielded and an unshielded grassland, it will only net you 1 shield. But, that one shield represents a 33% increase, surely this is not something light! (I know, the effects are fewer when you have a later GA, but at that moment you are likely to have factories up and running, which multiplies it again)
Another remark is that even in despotism, it is best to have mined unshielded grasslands in a GA. In despotism, your mined shielded grassland does not give you any bonus, as it doesn't go from 2 to 3, whereas your unshielded grasslands go from 1 to 2. This is not a reason why you would have to irrigate SGs in despotism, but it isn't a disadvantage in a GA.
The second reason why you need balanced tiles has a smaller advantage, and is way more difficult to explain, it is too situation dependent. But lets start, for simplicity, from the following example: size 2 city in the industrial age (so with RR), with hills, normal grasslands, and SG nearby. There are a number of possibilities how you can improve your tiles, which all give other rewards. But, the best I can think of is having 1 SG mined (+RR), with 1 mined hill. This will net you 2 food + 1 shield from the city tile, 4 food + 1 shield from the SG and 1 food + 4 shields from the hill. Total 7 food + 6 shields, not bad for a size 2.
If you would try out any other combination, you can have more production by mining the SG plus a hill, but this will net you 5 food + 8 shields, barely adequate to grow. Or, you can mine 2 SGs, netting 6 food + 7 shields. This would also be a good city, but growth isn't super, and the governor will not choose it. Other possibilities give fewer food and production, so we won't consider those.
If you have larger cities, the question becomes which grassland will be the first to not be worked, and irrigating SGs will always ensure that they are worked, where irrigating normal grass will not do this. After all, the best way to see that production is high if you can have those hills worked, for which you need some irrigation.
This might not be a proof that balanced is always better, but from the experience I've got with all kind of situations, I think that balanced tiles, and thus irrigated SGs is better, if only to let the governor choose the tiles instead of managing them yourself. But, I'll include the general disclaimer for this thread: In specific situations, it might not be the best thing to follow
DeepO
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Nakar Gabab
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of Pedantic Nitpicking
May 2001
time: 00:21
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Maybe those Peruvians are onto something after all...
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Ironikinit
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Quite obvious when you think about it, and doesn't require micromanagement in the least, unless one automates at first opportunity. The increased production under GoldAge and mobilization should generally be substantial compared to players who regularly mined grasslands with the bonus resource and irrigated those without. Where'd that idea come from anyway? It's good till you hit republic, I guess, but that's like a fifth of the game.
So, never bother to mine bonus grasslands or mine early in the game and irrigate later?
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:21
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Ironikinit, I do start with mining the SGs in despotism, it will give you the extra edge needed. But I found it is not a big deal to redo those once you hit republic. The reason is that only a few cities will have grown at that time, the others are at most size 4 (an exception, normally they will build a settler when they reach 3). Therefore, it was not needed to mine everything in sight, I will only improve what is really used, and if I have extra workers let these start on mining hills, irrigating plains, etc. This way, the moment you switch to republic you have the full advantages of the terrain. This also mean that only a few SGs will have been mined, and these are easy to convert. plus, in cities where an abundance of shields are present, a few of them should have been irrigated already.
It is a bit of extra micromanagement, but it pays off. Plus, later in the game, I will generally set 85% of my workers to Shift+A, and they do a relatively good job on it. The other 15% I use to correct things, one of those corrections being that I irrigate SG where needed, and mine normal grass when I have too much irrigation. This, together with the manage mood governor, will make my cities running at near peak efficiency without much of the tedium of doing it yourself. You just have to correct the AI sometimes, but in general it does a good job.
DeepO
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Ironikinit
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Maybe one of those questions that will be answered by MultPlay.
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09-08-2002 04:53
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