09-08-2002 09:34									#1
	Machiavelli Institute: Foriegn RoP Agreements may spell trouble for Apolytonia Got spare money?

Those of us who attended the turnchat noticed something a little odd (from my expierence anyway), the RoP Agreements between, well, everyone.

America has a RoP with every civ but us. Not a problem, they're tiny, the RoP means nothing.

But that means they have Embassies with everyone in the game.

There are similar suitations (less drastic) with the other civs.

i'm going to provide a basic overview for you all.

here is a list of all RoPs WE KNOW OF (note everyone has one with USA):

France-Greece
France-Persia
Greece-Rome
Greece-England
Greece-Germany
Greece-Aztecs

So, France Definately has an embassy with Greece, Persia, and, America.

Doom? Probaly not. Threat? You betcha. I say we declare war on Persia just to make sure.

	09-08-2002 09:38									#2
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almost forgot the cool web.

Attachment: web.gif
This has been downloaded 67 time(s).

	09-08-2002 09:40									#3
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Damn... why do I look like a gay cross dresser in that pic?

	09-08-2002 09:40									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Ninot Damn... why do I look like a gay cross dresser in that pic?

dont ask me, it's your headress.

	09-08-2002 11:46									#5
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First, as other have pointed out, Milhouse does tend to have homosexual tendencies...

Second, I still say better to knock Persia out now before they become a serious power and pain in the ass.

Third, I am incredibly sexy.

Fourth, I don't think the right of passage is a serious threat to us at this time and juncture.

Fifth, what would you do for a Klondike bar?

Sixth, Otto looks pretty pissed at us, better watch the German front.

Seventh, I need alcohol now!

	09-08-2002 13:51									#6
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War with Persia is the last thing we need right now. France may be able to convince Persia to join the war once we attack them and may not. But starting a war with Persia right now would mean:
1. A 100% chance for a war with Persia (which IMHO we DON'T want because we'll have to divert some swordsmen to guard those very lightly defended towns near the Persian border).
2. They will be more upset with us and more likely to convince others to join the fight.
Besides, AFAIK it is harder to get a good surrender treaty with a civ you're fighting if you're fighting other civs as well.

Our war with France should be as short as possible so as little AI civs would declare war on us as possible. We might have to sign a peace treaty even before we get the French's wine, as painful as it sounds...

	09-08-2002 20:38									#7
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We need to sign RoPs with Persia and Greece before attacking the French, even if it means throwing in some gpt.
The 2 will be much less likely to join an alliance with the French this way, except if they are planning to attack us anyway.
We should also put a defensive unit wherever we have a worker stack : the AI is much more warlike when it sees unprotected riches to grab.

Overall, I think gpt gifts (or thrown in for the RoP) are a must to appease Persia and Greece.

	09-08-2002 20:47									#8
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quote: Originally posted by GoodFella Sixth, Otto looks pretty pissed at us, better watch the German front. Seventh, I need alcohol now!

Otto always looks pissed. Plus we all know he is psychopathic. He will attack us sooner or later.

Yes, signing ROP with Greece and Persia would be nice. How much cash is left after the upgrades? Perhaps some more embassies to give us better knowledge of the political environment would be in order?

	10-08-2002 00:15									#9
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If you really want to get on Bismark's good side, you have to sign a military alliance with him. He get's really happy when you help him destroy people

	10-08-2002 00:31									#10
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Only til that war is over. But, he can be a usefull ally in aiding take overs. You just have to plan it right and not let him get all the cities.

	10-08-2002 02:07									#11
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A RoP agreement with Greece and Persia isn't going to get us peace should we attack France. We should be more concerned about France's ability to pull in allies. Does France have the money and/or tech to bribe the necessary allies?

If so, we should consider employing allies who would help us counter France's allies. Uber already mentioned Bismark's love of war. In my experience Bismark is always a zealous ally and loves to be bought into conflicts. Furthermore, he's so far away from France that he'd want out of the war by the time his troops arrived.

But if France tried to buy an ally into the war, they'd most likely be bought in against both us and Germany. Their forces would be split, or (most likely) simply go after the most opportune target. We'd just have to make sure that our cities appear less opportune than the German cities before war breaks out.

HOWEVER, if France does not have the cash to buy an ally this is moot. We need to determine what France's ability is. Anyone have the most recent data?

--Togas

	10-08-2002 02:48									#12
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Actually, if we get the RoP's within just a few turns of declaring war, the civs we have RoP's with us won't declare war because they can't cancel the RoP yet.

	10-08-2002 03:05									#13
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Togas :
an offensive alliance should last 20 turns, and declaring peace too early to the enemy would hurt our reputation (and we don't want a 20 turns war against the French)

The French have money. Probably enough to make allies, and could give their techs to the backwards Russians to ally with them too.
But, if we sign RoPs with our two mighty neighbours, their price to ally with France should go higher, and France could be unable to buy.
If they've decided to attack us already, RoPs won't change anything. If they didn't decide to attack us, they might do the difference (and the gpt we'll throw in would help too)
It's pure specualtion, but I'd prefer spend some more money, and avoid a costly and unprepared war against our mighty neighbours.

To reduce Persia's and Greece's agressiveness, I still think we should garrison units (even warriors) with our workers stacks. If things are too easy to grab, the AI jumps in.

	10-08-2002 03:06									#14
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker Actually, if we get the RoP's within just a few turns of declaring war, the civs we have RoP's with us won't declare war because they can't cancel the RoP yet.

Not in my experience. I read about that trick in the forums and tried it in my last game (Declared war on France, did RoP with Aztecs who were their buddies) and they declared war after only 1 turn of the RoP.

France just bribed them into breaking the treaty with me.

--Togas

	10-08-2002 03:08									#15
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Wouldn't they still take a reputation hit? Does the AI care about other AI's reputations?

	10-08-2002 03:15									#16
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I'm with Spiffor -- sign ROPs with Germany and Persia (the only two nations that could really hurt us before we could set up an emergency defense), do a quick attack on France, and then cut at least one of the two ROPs off after twenty turns. If the AI's going to attack us, at least make it have some consequences for them...

-- adaMada

	10-08-2002 03:25									#17
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I think I'm the only one that hates to give the enemy settlers and spearmen the option to wander about my territory looking to settle in that pointless little wasteland back in the corner that I purposefully avoided.

But that's just me...

IDEA! Could someone who has the game (I'm at work) load the save and see how much it would cost to have, say, Greece declare war on France. Persia declare war on France. Germany, Russia, etc.

We could see if there's some correlation between the countries that HAVE RoPs and those that don't. See how much the cost increases, and perhaps discover if there are other more signifigant factors.

--Togas

p.s. Of course, this could only be done with those whom we have embassies. Who do we have embassies with right now?

	10-08-2002 03:33									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Togas I think I'm the only one that hates to give the enemy settlers and spearmen the option to wander about my territory looking to settle in that pointless little wasteland back in the corner that I purposefully avoided. But that's just me...

No, I can tell you, you are not the only one !

	10-08-2002 03:42									#19
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This won't be a very good way to test this theory. There are too many factors involved: the size of the AI's army, the distance between the AI's territory and France, the amount of resources that the AI has etc'...
I'm guessing the theory is correct though.
As for your question, we have embassies at Greece, America and Persia.

	10-08-2002 04:06									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Togas I think I'm the only one that hates to give the enemy settlers and spearmen the option to wander about my territory looking to settle in that pointless little wasteland back in the corner that I purposefully avoided.

I agree on that part... I really need to take another look at our map and see how many of those little wastelands we've got... and how much we stand to loose... on the other hand, even when I don't have a ROP, the AI tends to walk through my terratory anyway, and then declare war if I tell 'em to scram.

If we get Russia or Greece to sign a ROP, could that make the other AI's think twice before attacking us? Does anyone know if the AI thinks like that? My best guess is not, but still... if it did, that might work, signing a ROP with a civ too far away to do much.

As for that test you proposed, Spiffor's right, there are lots of different factors, but I say someone runs it anyway, just to see what it shows.

-- adaMada

	10-08-2002 04:40									#21
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Hmm... and what if France had a RoP with Germany and they had enough gold to make Germany and Persia declare war on us ?
This could be a serious threat because we would be attacked from all the sides.

Maybe we could establish an embassy with France to know that...
(and after a war, do we have to establish an ambassy again or is it automatically done ?)

	10-08-2002 14:43									#22
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quote: Originally posted by adaMada As for that test you proposed, Spiffor's right, there are lots of different factors, but I say someone runs it anyway, just to see what it shows.

Ahem...
I suggested that.

You just can't get any credit these days...

	10-08-2002 14:50									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Schee (and after a war, do we have to establish an ambassy again or is it automatically done ?)

Embassies last for the entire duration of the game, regardless of any diplomatic changes.