10-08-2002 00:04									#31
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Donal Graeme What we need is a small, but very important Constitution that takes care of the most important issues: basically polls, positions, and a few procedures. The rest of management should be located in a Code of Laws.

AMEN!

It must delegate powers, give us a very basic outline of procedures (elections to be had every month, etc), give rights, divide branches of government and perhaps create a legislative body that passes laws.

I'd like to volunteer to serve as a delegate for the Constitutional Convention ... however, it might be better if we just post a thread and debate it there over a period of a few weeks.

--Togas

	10-08-2002 01:00									#32
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

We do not have enough people for an *elected* legislature. It is not feasible. However, a legislature composed of all of the *active*, *participating* citizens would work quite well.

	10-08-2002 06:09									#33
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I was thinking along the lines of 4 to 10 people sent off to rework what we have and to introduce such new concepts as are being discussed currently. Once they agree they could come back and present the finished document in a discussion, fine tuning could be done to address widely held concerns and we could vote on it.

Actually doesn't take that many people to do this if it is simply a reworking of what we have. Maybe as few as 3 or 4 people could do it, since it would be best if it was written mainly by one person.

Togas would be an excellent candidate for the project given his real world experience.

	10-08-2002 13:09									#34
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Count me in for supporting your concept. I see the same issue in another DG I am currently participating in; a few people making the Constitution. I liked your opening post.

	10-08-2002 15:43									#35
	Put an end to popups!

hi ,

we dont need a new one , what we need is to improve over time , when we see that at one point something in the constitution aint working out , or for whatever reason its has passed its purpose we should improve it , ....

have a nice day

	10-08-2002 17:15									#36
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*points out that legislative Code of Laws was his idea first*

	10-08-2002 18:48									#37
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I agree with panag. We should continue improving on the old constitution until it is a good document that can provide us with what we need.

	11-08-2002 00:25									#38
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I agree with a radical government overhaul (remembers he has been calling for it for months now...) and I like the idea of a constitutional congress to work out a new document, a smal document that deals only with the structure and running of government (the part of the demo game that has nothing to do with the actual game).

The issue I see is how such a atsk would be carried out. We are about to go to war, and I don't think it would benefit the game at all to halt playin, or at the least, clog the forum with a huge number of contitutional threads. The new constitution would have to be written in a public way so everyone can particpate, but probalby not in the forum- as to not interupt the game to badly, no more than election season. Thats another worry- any new gov. structure would be different from our current one and thus may of the coming elections will be meaningless. we need to move quick on this_ I say, before the beginning of the elections- so if we have to suspend things, the delay will be as small as we can, not as long as it can be.

	11-08-2002 00:53									#39
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Lets have a poll and see if most people want this.

	11-08-2002 01:06									#40
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I don't think the game needs to be halted. The one good thing that is happening is that we are electing capable Presidents and Ministers (on the whole) and we are making progress in the game. Don't stop that.

I also do not think that rushing is a good thing. Rushing, combined with public debate are what has created the conditions we find ourselves in.

What I am proposing is that people support the idea of sending a select few off to rework our current laws, then report back with the results. There could then be some discussion of that and then a vote could be held.

We could call it 'the mega amendment' if people are more confortable with that. However, it could do quite well as it's own document. The original is saved, on my hard drive at least, and most likely will be saved in the Apolyton archives.

	11-08-2002 01:51									#41
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker *points out that legislative Code of Laws was his idea first*

hi ,

who's idea was it , at first , ....

have a nice day

	11-08-2002 01:54									#42
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quote: Originally posted by GePap I agree with a radical government overhaul (remembers he has been calling for it for months now...) and I like the idea of a constitutional congress to work out a new document, a smal document that deals only with the structure and running of government (the part of the demo game that has nothing to do with the actual game). The issue I see is how such a atsk would be carried out. We are about to go to war, and I don't think it would benefit the game at all to halt playin, or at the least, clog the forum with a huge number of contitutional threads. The new constitution would have to be written in a public way so everyone can particpate, but probalby not in the forum- as to not interupt the game to badly, no more than election season. Thats another worry- any new gov. structure would be different from our current one and thus may of the coming elections will be meaningless. we need to move quick on this_ I say, before the beginning of the elections- so if we have to suspend things, the delay will be as small as we can, not as long as it can be.

hi ,

, sounds good , we should have a simple yet effective "law"

who is calling for it , for months

and it would be against the game , and even backfire against all of us if we where to halt the game for that , ....

have a nice day

	12-08-2002 12:06									#43
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You have my support, nye.

A new document is needed. A committee to work out the details, and bring it back for a vote.

	12-08-2002 23:45									#44
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I do not see a problem with the Code of Laws at all. Nay, the problem lies with many of our ministers. Ministers in the past have simply disappeared after their elected. Some lack the responsibility to not run even if they know that they will be absent for a considerate time during their term. This has left the other ministers to bicker over what to do within the power of the former's. It seems to me that our current problems are because ministers neglect their duties. What we need are more responsible ministers, not to completely overhaul our government.

Everyone is saying that the Code of Laws is faulty but I have not yet heard of any example of this, any clause that that needs improvement. I cannot think of one that is responsible for the problems to date. If no one else can then I simply cannot support this action.

	13-08-2002 00:32									#45
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There are contradictions between clauses and amendments. For instance, the ministers were originally empowered to decide the validity of official polls. When the court was created the intent was to move that function to the court (I believe). However, nothing was said about that power of the ministers. So now either the ministers, the court, or both? If both, which is superior to the other?

There are some subtle flaws. The clause on polling standards mentions that unofficial polls must identify themselves. The court was collectively dumb struck when we discovered that along with it's implications during a chat. Thus official polls do not need to identify themselves (although they should) and every poll started to serve some useful, but transient purpose is granted the status of 'official'.

In some cases the current Code of Laws is too specific and detailed. For instance, when the game began the movers and shakers had no problem with turn chats. At the beginning of a game chats are a very good way to go. There is not much to do in any given turn. The parts of the CoL dealing with the playing of the game were written to mandate turn 'chats'. Now, that same group of people are less able to participate. We need others who can lead. Some of the most qualified are unavailable for chats so they do not run. Even though there are other, effective ways to play the actual game we are left with 'chats' being mandated and the game suffering.

Some things are completely missing. such as a chain of command. When a post is vacant it should be filled by the person above that post in the chain. If the president is missing, then the person available below should step up, or some such. Now, when someone is missing we have chaos.

We can go back and amend, that is correct. However amending has a high standard for approval. We would be better served with a junior set of laws that are more specific and can be changed easily as the situation warrants. That CoL would be subordinate to a Constitution which would deal with the broad strokes and general principles. Ideally, it would not require amendment very often.

In short, we can amend the current CoL until the cows come home as each new problem is encountered. Why don't we just do it right once and get it done with?

	14-08-2002 14:52									#46
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither There are contradictions between clauses and amendments. For instance, the ministers were originally empowered to decide the validity of official polls. When the court was created the intent was to move that function to the court (I believe). However, nothing was said about that power of the ministers. So now either the ministers, the court, or both? If both, which is superior to the other? There are some subtle flaws. The clause on polling standards mentions that unofficial polls must identify themselves. The court was collectively dumb struck when we discovered that along with it's implications during a chat. Thus official polls do not need to identify themselves (although they should) and every poll started to serve some useful, but transient purpose is granted the status of 'official'. In some cases the current Code of Laws is too specific and detailed. For instance, when the game began the movers and shakers had no problem with turn chats. At the beginning of a game chats are a very good way to go. There is not much to do in any given turn. The parts of the CoL dealing with the playing of the game were written to mandate turn 'chats'. Now, that same group of people are less able to participate. We need others who can lead. Some of the most qualified are unavailable for chats so they do not run. Even though there are other, effective ways to play the actual game we are left with 'chats' being mandated and the game suffering. Some things are completely missing. such as a chain of command. When a post is vacant it should be filled by the person above that post in the chain. If the president is missing, then the person available below should step up, or some such. Now, when someone is missing we have chaos. We can go back and amend, that is correct. However amending has a high standard for approval. We would be better served with a junior set of laws that are more specific and can be changed easily as the situation warrants. That CoL would be subordinate to a Constitution which would deal with the broad strokes and general principles. Ideally, it would not require amendment very often. In short, we can amend the current CoL until the cows come home as each new problem is encountered. Why don't we just do it right once and get it done with?

hi ,

, good post , now , do the people want it to be changed , .....
do the people want a col that is good , ...

sometimes it seems that there are only a few that want to bring a change , ....

and yes we should do it right , ones and for all , ...

BUT , what is "right" , .....

we can only build a col if there is more feedback

have a nice day

	16-08-2002 02:12									#47
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I'm all for a respected group of citizens writing a new consititution, one one condition -- the game not stop while the consitution is being written. I also think that the breakdown proposed earlier (President, Vice president, two Justices, two ministers, and one appointed citizen) isn't the best possible, though it'd be fine -- I'd rather have fewer automaticly-in governmental figures, and instead be able to appoint a number of respected citizens to the job.


Just my two bits...

-- adaMada


EDIT: I know I'm special, but I really didn't need to put my name twice .

	17-08-2002 19:46									#48
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hi ,

we need a P , a vice P , the ministers we have now , 5 judges , who make the poll's , and do a lot of other stuff , we need to increase the terms in time , like 6 or 8 weeks , we need to have a couple of people who make only maps , or do special jobs , the people in the government need to use a special avatar , we could use a democrazy MOD , we need to rewrite the COL , and while doing this , we need it to be as simple as it can be , .....

so , where do we start , .....

have a nice day

	18-08-2002 20:19									#49
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We should have a constition that is simple yet logical