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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:21
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Note: This thread will remain open until Friday, August 16th, at which time, formal discussion will close on the topic
This thread is being started because we're really making some great progress in getting our early version of the game out the door! As we are getting closer to reaching that mark, however, there are some things we're finding in the core rules that could use a bit of fleshing out. Among those, and as a direct outgrowth of the discussions held here, we decided that magic needed to be fleshed out a bit, at least leaning in the general direction of where we eventually envision it going.
To that end, yesterday, after a conversation with some of the programmers, I re-wrote the core-rules magic system, complete with changes that the re-write would cause/create in the rest of the core rules.
Keep in mind that what we're doing here is NOT creating a carbon copy of what we envision as the final magic system. We're doing this in baby steps, and to that end, this system prolly won't look much at all like the end result. This is an early prototype....a test.
As such, simplicity and balance are our keys. I regard the fact that I am able to bring this discussion here as QUITE a pleasant surprise, because it tells me that our code teams are confident that they can finish the core rules design on or ahead of our internal schedule AND add this new stuff too! That rocks! 
So...In the next couple of posts, I'll drop in the re-write I did of the basic system, and I'd like to start some discussions about it. What's it missing? More spells? More units? More buildings? Wonders?
Let's not go overboard on it...again, simplicity and balance. Three hundred different spells would be hatefully hard to balance in a timely fashion. Likewise, the basic combat system is not robust enough to handle scads of different units, but...I think we can make a really nice scaled down system here!
-=Vel=-
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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:21
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FOREWARD: This is something of an experiment in the new magic system of Candle'Bre. Consider this as a test of the basic concepts we'll eventually use (the sigil thing).
Re-Worked Magic system for the free version
* New Building type, available at game start: Artificer's Guild. Cost 100g. Available only to those who choose Artificer as their (or one of their) areas of magical study.
* New Building type, available ONLY to the Wizards, and only at Infrastructure tech level 3. Focusing Sigil. Cost = 150g. The focusing sigil produces 1 mana per turn by itself.
* New Building type, available ONLY to those who choose the Artificer school - Mana Well: Cost 40 Mana and 150 Gold. May not be built....must be created via Artificer's spell (see below).
* New Unit type, available ONLY to those who choose the Artificer school - Mighty Golem (see below).
* - Change to Leaders: Leaders now provide their three (3) re-roll effects every combat round, instead of once per combat. Additionally, leaders give all troops with them a +1 bonus to both attack and defense values (making them immensely more valuable).
* - Changes to combat system: Some accounting must be made for the defensive abilities of existing troops, given the increasing complexities of the system we are now building. Thus, each army will be assigned a defensive rating. The defensive rating is calculated by summing the total baseline defensive factors of all units present in the army and dividing that number by twenty (20). All fractions are dropped. This number represents the defensive capability of the unit when it is receiving potential casualties, and represents some number of free hits (consider these to be phantom "hits," removed first in every combat round in which casualties are incoming. Note that these phantom "hits" are ONLY applicable to damage sustained in tier three attacks. Archery fire (tier one), attacks made with Initiative (tier one), or cavalry charges (tier two) are all made without regard to this defensive factor (that is to say, casualties caused by these factors ignore the phantom "hits" and are taken straight from the ranks of the enemy force). All attacks made on tier three, however, must eat through the phantom "hits" before doing any direct damage to the units that make up the enemy's army.
Magic is divided into six categories
Air
Earth
Fire
Water
*Artificer
**Miracles
Because this is a fantasy world, ALL FACTIONS may make at least some limited use of magic (call them magic, call them miracles of the church, fact is, every group has access to at least the basics).
At game start, each faction chooses one category of magic. Multiple factions may choose the same category. Makes no difference.
Exception #1: The Wizards, thanks to their deeper understanding of the magic arts, may select two areas of magic to study. Also note that the wizards, again, thanks to their greater understanding of magics in general, see their mana rates doubled (the norm is one point of mana per three provs controlled, per turn, but for the wizards, it's 2 mana per three provs controlled, per turn). Note here, that the wizards may NOT choose Miracles as one of their schools of study.
Exception #2: The Castillar family may only choose from Artificer or Miracles. None of the other options are available to this group.
Each school of magic has five spells. The first of these are available immediately, and the rest are made available after certain conditions are met.
Note that since all factions are now able to make use of magic, then all factions will now require mana generation.
Note too that Artificers do not have spells per se....instead, they gain the ability to build certain things, or create certain effects not normally allowed in the core rules (see below). Artificer effects require a combination of Mana and gold to produce.
Miracles require a combination of Mana and Influence to produce.
How spells are made available
Level 1 - Every faction may make use of the level one spell in the area of their choosing immediately.
Level 2 - These spells become available as soon as the player in question has built at least five Scribe's Towers in his/her holdings. Note that in the case of Miracles, the player in question must build 3 temples, rather than five Scribe's Towers in his/her holdings for the spells to become available.
Level 3 - These spells become available after the following conditions are met:
Elemental Schools - Must have at least five focusing sigils constructed.
Artificer School - Must have at least six Artificer's Guilds constructed, and be at Inf. lvl 3
Miracles - Must have at least six Temples constructed, and be at Inf. lvl 3
Level 4 - These spells become available after the following conditions are met:
Elemental Schools - Must have at least seven focusing sigils constructed, and be at Inf. lvl 5
Artificer School - Must have at least 9 Artificer's Guilds constructed and be at Inf. lvl 5
Miracles - Must have at least 7 Cathedrals constructed and be at Inf. 5
Level 5 - These spells become available after the following conditions are met:
Elemental Schools - Must have at least 9 focusing sigils constructed, and be at Inf. lvl 7
Artificer School - Must have at least 12 Artificer's Guilds constructed, and be at Inf. lvl 7
Miracles - Must have at least 10 Cathedrals constructed and be at Inf. lvl 7
Spells - By Level and Category
Air Spells
Level 1 Raven's Wing Windstorm
Cost: 5
Area of effect: 1 province.
Game effect: Choose target province. A magical windstorm occurs in target province which lasts for the duration of your current turn. Your forces are unaffected by the wind, but if combat occurs in target province this turn, any enemy archers you face lose their tier one attack status (attacking on tier three, with the infantry), and suffer a -1 penalty to their attack values.
Level 2 Wind Walkers
Cost: 9
Area of effect: 1 Army
Game effect: Choose target army. That army sees its movement rate doubled this turn. Note that the unit may make multiple attacks if desired, thanks to this additional movement.
Level 3 Eyes of the Falcon
Cost 5 + special
Area of effect: special
Game effect: Choose target province currently covered over by the fog of war. Fog of war dissipates over that province until the start of your next turn. Multiple provinces may be selected, and for each province beyond the first, you must pay 2 additional mana for the spell to operate. Note that this spell MAY be cast onto a territory where the Fog of War is already lifted. If such a thing is done, then the caster gains specific troop information on the province (full knowledge of all troops currently in the province targeted).
Level 4 Unerring Twister
Cost 20
Area of effect: One enemy province.
Game effect: Choose enemy province. A menacing, magical tornado appears in the targeted province. This tornado cannot be precisely controlled, but has a deadly purpose to wreck havoc on enemy infrastructure. One building (at random) is destroyed in the province. If the target province contains no provincial improvements, then the tornado will seek out troops. All troops must roll a survival check (leaders are immune) on a d20. 1-4 indicates that the unit has been killed.
Level 5 Military (Mass) Teleportation
Cost: 40
Area of effect: All provinces you control
Game effect: Provinces that began the turn under your control require no movement points to move your troops through.
*****
Earth Spells
Level 1 Bountiful Harvest
Cost 6
Area of effect: 1 province
Game effect: Choose target province. That province produces 50% more than the expected amount of goods on the following turn, resulting in a 50% boost in (baseline) income in the province (thus, a province that normally produces 20gpt, would produce 30g on the turn following the Bountiful Harvest's casting).
Level 2 Wither
Cost 8
Area of effect: 1 province
Game effect: Choose target province. That province produces 50% less than the expected amount of goods on the following turn, resulting in a 50% decrease in (total) income in the province (thus, a province with an income of 40gpt would produce only 20g on the turn following the casting).
Level 3 Impenetrable Barrier
Cost 10
Area of effect: 1 province
Game effect: Select target province. All troops save for the troops of your faction treat target province as though it were composed entirely of mountains (in the basic game, this means that no enemy troops may enter the province). Your troops may enter the territory freely, but once inside, may not leave until the spell expires. Spell lasts until the start of your next turn.
Level 4 Earthquake
Cost 12
Area of effect: 1 province
Game effect: select target province. All buildings in that province must roll a survival check on a d20 (1-10 = building is destroyed). For each building that is destroyed, two troops (chosen at random) are also killed. If no troops are present, ignore this effect. (note that this MAY cause the targeted player to lose control of the province if he relies heavily on Mercenaries).
Level 5 Pestilence
Cost 20 + special
Area of effect: 1+ provinces
Game effect: Causes the province(s) targeted to become infected with a dreadful disease. Any troops moving through the affected provinces must roll a survival check. They must continue to roll survival checks every turn they remain in the affected provinces. Leaders are immune to this effect, but all other troops must roll vs. a d20 (1-5 = death). For every province beyond the first affected by pestilence, the cost is 4 mana. The spell lasts until the start of your next turn.
*****
(to be continued)
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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:21
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Fire Spells
Level 1 Fires of the Vengeful Heart
Cost 6
Area of effect: 1 army
Game effect: Choose target army. All units in target army gain +1 on their attack values until the end of your current turn.
Level 2 Fire Sprites
Cost: 7
Target: 1 province or 1 army
Game effect: Choose target province or army. If a province is targeted, choose one (1) provincial improvement. That improvement is destroyed. If an army is selected, any siege engines in that army are destroyed. If no seige engines are present, then all archers present must roll a survival check (d20, 1-7 = death). If no archers are present, then all other troops in the army must roll a survival check (d20, 1-4 = death). Leaders are immune.
Level 3 Fire Wierding
Cost 5 + special
Area of effect: 1 Army
Game effect: Select target army. For every mana beyond the casting cost you spend, one troop (random) in target army must roll a survival check (d20, 1-10 = death). For every enemy troop so slain, you lose 2g (payment to the spirits of fire...what they do with the gold is beyond you). If you have insufficient gold to pay this cost, then for every three enemy troops slain, you lose one troop, selected randomly from all the troops currently under your control (a slightly more vicious method of paying the angry fire spirits). Leaders are immune to this spell.
Level 4 Fire Warding
Cost: 30 Mana
Area of effect: 1 Army
Game effect: Select target army you control. From now until the start of your next turn, any time a troop is taken as a casualty from a non-archer attack by the army protected with Fire Warding, the army inflicting the casualty ALSO loses a unit (at random).
Level 5 Firestorm
Cost: 50 Mana
Area of effect: 1 Province
Game effect: Everything in target province is destroyed. Provincial Improvements, troops, leaders....everything. You lose all accumulated Honor and half your accumulated Influence upon casting this spell. The price of any Church Intercessions made on your behalf increases by five (5) with each casting of this spell.
*****
Water Spells
Level 1 Miring Muck
Cost 5
Area of effect: One province
Game effect: Choose target province. That province is subject to rains so fierce that no troop movement into, or out of it is possible this turn. Any troops currently in target province must remain in place. Lasts until the start of your next turn.
Level 2 Water Spirit's Warding
Cost 4 + special
Area of effect: One province
Game effect: Select target province. That province cannot be the target of any other spell for as long as the Water Spirit's Warding remains in effect. For each province selected beyond the first, add an additiona two (2) mana to the spell. This spell carries an upkeep of two (2) mana per province, per turn. If the upkeep cannot be paid, then the spell ends immediately, and the province once protected is again a valid target for enemy spell casting.
Level 3 Diviner's Scrying Pool
Cost 5
Area of effect: special
Game effect: Turns target province into a scrying device. Select target province, pay 2 mana, and Fog of War is lifted in that province until the start of your next turn. Scrying Pool enchantment costs 2 mana per turn to maintain.
Level 4 Floodwater Rising
Cost 15 + special
Area of effect: 1 or more target provinces
Game effect: Target province is the subject of massive flooding. All buildings and troops must roll a survival check d20, buildings 1-2 = destroyed, troops 1-3 = destroyed). If the province targeted is one you control, the buildings need not make a survival check, and the troops are lost only on a roll of one (1). Also, if the targeted province is one you control, the income generated by that province on the following turn is doubled (the sediments dredged up by the flooding cause crop yields to explode through the roof). No income effect on provinces controlled by any other player. No troops may move into, or out of provinces affected by the Floodwater spell. Note specifically that this spell CAN kill the Artificer's Mighty Golem. Leaders, however, are immune to this spell's effects. Note that for every province beyond the first that this spell targets, an additional 10 Mana must be paid. Spell lasts until the start of your next turn.
Level 5 Water of Life
Cost 50
Area of Effect: 1 Army
Game effect: Grants ten (10) "phantom hits" to target army (the first 10 hits caused by tier three attacks are simply ignored). This spell may be cast multiple times on the same army, and has a cumulative effect.
*****
Artificer Effects
Level 1 Enchanted Bellows - Enhanced Armoring Techniques
Cost: 10 Mana & 50 Gold
Area of effect: 1 Barracks
Game effect: All troops that target barracks trains gain an additional +1 on defense. This spell may only be cast once per barracks, but is cumulative with all other effects. Note that the bonus for cavalry is +2
This spell must be maintained by paying 1 mana per turn. If mana cannot be paid, then the spell is broken.
Level 2 Enchanted Forge - Magically Tempered Steel
Cost: 15 Mana & 70 Gold
Area of effect: 1 Barracks
Game effect: All troops that target barracks trains gain an additional +1 on attack. This spell may only be cast once per barracks, but is cumulative with all other effects. Note that the bonus for cavalry is +3
This spell must be maintained by paying 1 mana per turn. If mana cannot be paid, then the spell is broken.
Level 3 Tinkerer's Workshop
Cost: 20 Mana & 90 Gold
Area of effect: 1 Barracks or 1 Research Facility
Game effect: If barracks is targeted, Tinkerer's Workshop allows an easing of troop training limits on the target barracks. Barracks targeted may now train two (2) additional troops per turn. Additionally, Cavalry trained from target barracks cost 4g less.
If Research Facility is targeted, then target Research Facility generates an additional five (5) reserach points per turn. These bonus research points are given to a single tech tree, chosen randomly each turn.
This spell must be maintained by paying 1 mana per turn. If mana cannot be paid, then the spell is broken.
Level 4 Mana Well
Cost: 40 Mana & 150 Gold
Area of Effect: 1 Province
Game effect: Target province generates one (1) additional mana per turn. This mana is NOT added to the player's normal pool. Instead, it is held separately, and is ONLY usable to pay for maintenance of spells. If there are no spells that need maintaining, then these points simply build up until there ARE spells that require maintainance. Maintenance costs are deducted from any mana held in Mana wells first, before being deducted from a player's normally generated mana.
Level 5 Mighty Golem
Cost: 30 Mana & 30 Gold
Game effect: Golems are specially created units designed purely for defense. They may be created at any Artificer's Guild, or any building that currently has an Artificer's enchantment placed on it. Golems have a movement rate of zero (0). They may not leave the province they are built in. Golems stats are: 0/18/0. They may not be targeted by precision strikes, may not be targeted by any area-effecting spell, and are automatically chosen last as casualties. Only one golem may be created per province, per turn. Golems do not require upkeep of any kind.
*****
Miracles of the Church
Level 1 Lions of the Faith
Cost 5 Mana & 5 Influence
Area of Effect: 1 Army
Game Effect: Target army gets 3 re-rolls per round, as if they had a leader present. Note that this effect IS cumulative if there is currently a leader present in the army. Lasts until the start of your next turn.
Level 2 Festival of the Highfather
Cost 10 Mana and 10 Influence
Area of Effect: 1 Province
Game effect: Until the start of your next turn, no attacks may be made into, or initiated from target province.
Level 3 Religious Fervor
Cost 20 Mana and 10 Influence
Area of Effect: 1 Barracks
Game effect: Target barracks has no restrictions whatsoever on the number of troops that may be trained in it this turn.
Level 4 Highfather's Blessing
Cost 30 Mana and 15 Influence
Area of effect: 1 Army
Game effect: All units in target army gain +2 on their attack and defense values. Cavalry gain +4 on their attack and defense values. This spell may not be cast more than once on a target army, but is cumulative with all other effects. Lasts until the start of your next turn.
Level 5 Crusaders!
Cost 40 Mana and 30 Influence
Area of effect: 1 Army
Game effect: Target army's defense factor (the number of "phantom hits" it can take via tier three attacks) doubled (sum of all defensive factors divided by 10, instead of 20). This spell may not be cast more than once on a target army, but is permanant, so long as even a single soldier remains alive in the army.
*****
(Brief) Analysis of spell schools:
Air - Primarily focus is mobility, with a nice low level attack oriented spell aimed at troops, one decent attack spell aimed at provinces, and one EXCELLENT scrying spell.
Earth - A balance of boons for you, and hinderances for your enemy.
Fire - Pure hurt and pain. No two ways about it.
Water - Primarily defensive in nature, even its one "attack oriented" spell is a boon to the caster.
Artificer - Focused almost exclusively on improving the improvements, and the soldiers you field. The Mighty Golem is a treasure indeed, when it comes to building a rock solid defense.
Miracles - Focused exclusively on YOUR armies in one way or another, the Church is a powerful motivating tool, and a mighty defensive shield.
END
-=Vel=-
(Howwzat?)
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JMarks
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formerly known as the artist
Mar 2000
time: 05:21
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Vel, thanks for posting this.
Hopefully the coding coordinates will allow easy additions for all levels of spells and whatnot.
Especially since currently there are too few that are positive boons for the user in anything other than military. Since we don't want to over focus on the military, we need some more stuff in society, agriculture, and economics.
For example in air catagory here are two ideas:
Smooth tongue:
Cost: 50 mana
Traders can smooth talk buyers into buying their goods for much more than they're worth, or smooth talk sellers into giving a significantly lower price. Gain 2xs more gold or spend 2xs less gold for trades this turn.
Tongue of Deciept
Cost: 30 M, 10 G
Spies given greater power of decieving their hearers with their lies. +50 percent success for bribing a province or noble.
You know, stuff like that. 
Also, would it be too hard to have upgrades of lower level spells? For instance the bountiful harvest is nice, but it'd really be cool if higher levels will allow better results. Say double, triple and or quadruple the harvest. Now that could be REALLY handy.
Just some suggestions.
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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:21
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It was brought to my attention that it might be helpful to go into a bit more detail with the how's and why's of the current redesign of the system, so here goes:
1) Changes listed: Many of the listed changes are actually additions, and relatively self explanatory once you read through the entire document.
The Focusing Sigils were put in place to provide a mechanism whereby the wizards would be the only faction able to access higher level elemental based spells, thus preserving a measure of their uniqueness in terms of magic, while giving all factions access to at least some stuff (though, the way the system is designed, all non-wizardly factions can gain access to all levels of spells in miracles and in the artificer school....this was done intentionally). designer's note: This, in my mind, opens up a GREAT argument as to why the elemental magics, especially the lower level spells (1-2) should be expanded to a greater point than the Artificer and Miracles school....to provide non-wizard factions with a compelling reason to pick one of the elemental schools). The sigils in this build of the magic system also serve to further enhance the wizards' already superior mana generation capabilities.
The Mana Well was put into place to make the Artificer school more viable...almost all their spells carry an upkeep cost, and some mechanism was needed to help pay those upkeeps, without providing the school with more mana for spells.
The Mighty Golem was added because it's a) very much in keeping with my vision of the Artificer school, and b) because such a dreadfully effective defensive unit REALLY strenghtens the school
2) Changes to the combat system: We have a tremendously good combat model described here on the 'poly forums. The downside is that the version we have outlined in the core rules was designed with the board game in mind, and while it is quite a good board game system, it lacks the robust nature found in computer war games. The defensive rating was an attempt to abstract certain key elements of our latest thinking where the combat system is concerned, and build those (in at least abstracted form) into the core rules combat engine. By designing the defensive factor the way it's listed currently, it does some pretty interesting things to the combat system.
First, it provides a greater distinction for Archers and Cavalry, making them more valuable (in their ability to circumvent the defensive factor). Second, it increases the value of combat techs (by the time infantry get their second defensive bonus, two infantry will provide a defensive factor of 1, all by themselves. This makes infantry a tremendously good bargain). Third, it further fosters the notion that combined arms will win against massed infantry/mercs (a combined arms force containing archers/cavalry/infantry/mercs will be able to reliably inflict more casualties per turn, thanks to having two of their troop classes simply ignore the other side's defensive factor, while the combined arms force's own infantry serves to act as a shock absorber, taking the brunt of the punishment (after the defensive factor hits have been chewed through each combat round) that the other side delivers. It also sets up some interesting spell effects (create spells that monkey with the defensive factor forumla).
Possible Directions:
1) More spells, especially for the elemental schools on lower levels.
We don't need to dramatically increase the number of spells, but having, say, for elemental schools: 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 (spells by level), and 2, 2, 2, 2, 1 (by level) for the Artificer/Miracle schools should not be much of a stretch, and remain relatively easy to balance.
2) Additional units - perhaps each elemental school could have an elemental combat unit (proposed in the more advanced magic system) - or perhaps something else entirely. Don't want toooo many units, again, but still, there's some room to play here (intriguing idea for a unit - what about a unit type whose presence in an army reduces the other side's defensive factor?)
3) Minor wonders - special buildings - we should go really light on these, given that only three provincial improvements are allowed in any province in this build of the game....that doesn't leave much room for flexibility, and we've already got a lot of building types...still, if someone sugessts some really coolimus maximus ones....
And prolly a ton of others that I've not yet thought of....
-=Vel=-
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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:21
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Hiya Rav! Yep....I was a bit worried over the golems, so I tried to fashion them in such a way that they'd not be unduly powerful, but still give people who chose Artificer as their school of choice a nice weapon of defense. They require no upkeep in mana or gold, but they are right expensive, compared to other troops. I think what will help keep them in balance though, is the fact that they can't move from the province they're summoned/created in, so no gifting them to another faction or anything like that, and only one can be fashioned in provinces with the requisite buildings per turn, which should keep the numbers down.
Still, the good thing about it is that they're tough, durable, and if given a sufficient amount of time to build up their numbers, they make a truly excellent "elite corp" of defenders (plus, with the newly added "defensive factor" for armies, each golem is very nearly as good as two defenders, cos with that big 18 defense, they nearly provide a point of "defense factor" all by themselves! The other nice advantage to them is that the golem can be built in addition to the "normal" hiring/training rate of the province he's created in (ie - if the province has an economic value of 50, then 5 troops can be trained there if a barracks is present. If the barracks has an Artificer's enchantment on it, then it can also be used to create a golem, allowing for a sixth unit to be created/trained there each turn. Might seem like a small advantage, but over the course of the game, it can really add up!
And yes....I'm really quite excited about the way the magic system for the final version is shaping up! It's still got a long ways to go before I'll be ready for show and tell (TONS of variations I'm working through), but so far, it's been amazingly cool!
-=Vel=-
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Ramo
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Austin, Texas, USA
Oct 1999
time: 23:21
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Sounds great. 
After reading one of Turtledove's books, "March Through the Peachtree," I've been doing a little thinking of the societal implications of magic in CB. In his book, though he was being very unspecific, the nobility was somehow able to control serfs through magic (though no such thing ever happened in the book's battles, go figure  ).
I suggest adopting a similar idea. Say, magic can be used to force an unruly peasantry (expend some mana to increase peasant happiness for a few turns) or opponents in battle (spend some mana to control an enemy unit for a few battle rounds) into subservience.
Also, I was wondering what mana is, exactly. I understand that it's some sort of currency for magic, but I don't know if there's anything beyond that. How is mana produced? What's needed in its production? Who makes it? I think we can make an interesting story out of the concept.
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JMarks
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formerly known as the artist
Mar 2000
time: 05:21
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Hey, concerning Golems, could it be possible using the current model to make these defenders more of an assist rather than the pure defense in and of themselves? You know, a golem by itself, vrs even a small army faces no chance, but with a small gaurd of infantry/mercs will hold out pretty well? Something simple like that would be nice in my opinion to prevent artificers being completely invicible in defense, at least via non fate card related stuffage.
Also, basically what we have in the CB models that are up is a war game, since everything else is either not present or overly abstracted. Would it be possible to have some coders work on a CB economic model without the military, or military extremely abstracted? Could we set up a CB that concentrates on a simple societal model? That way we can also flush out those systems, or at least get more ideas of what we want, and figure out better fate cards and magic spells for those systems. Especially if we want a really balanced game. But, thats just my thought.
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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:21
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Hey guys!
Ramo: Mana is, you're right....the currency of magic. It comes from the land itself, and is channeled by men learned in the arts arcana, for specific purposes. The specific mana-enhancing builds (focusing sigils and mana wells) work thusly:
In the case of the focusing sigil, it creates a special place (a la Stone Henge) where magical energies can gather...a nexus. They wind up feeding off of each other and magnifying, thus, the bonus of mana providedl.
In the case of the wells, they create a "battery" within the land itself, allowing for the storage of the land's own latent magical energy. Under normal conditions, the land gives off its magical energy on a low level of concentration, but on a constant basis....the wells allow this to be stored up and used as needed.
Og: EXCELLENT point re: Fire mages in the game. If any of the schools are overpowered, Fire is prolly it, with that level five spell they've got. Comparatively, the other schools can't even touch that one, and I'm thinking of ways to tone it down (have a survival roll check, instead of auto deaths).
Counterspells - I love it! That's the kind of thing I'm looking for, right there! Rather than having them cast "in response to" enemy spells (which would be a nightmare to implement in terms of network game play), what we could do is set up a system of wards....kinna like the water spirit's warding that protects provs from being targeted. We could have a ward that could be cast on an army, making it impervious to certain types of spells or effects. Similarly, we could have a provincial ward, that would act to protect anything that happens to be IN the province. These we could set up either durationally for high cost, or make them lower cost and attach a per turn upkeep....or a bit of both for variation! 
I'm on the fence about something though....should we provide each school with a basic counterspell (varying the costs by school, to simulate some school's relatively tougher time with countermagicks), or should we make one school's main strength countermagics, and if we give the other school's anything like it, then make it very limited (ie - water would have a fire counter, and vice versa, air would have an earth counter, and vice versa).
JMarks: Exactly right! And that's pretty close to the way things currently are with the ol' Golem as it stands now. By himself, good defense or not, a small troop of enemy soldiers will get a hit, and he's toasted. But mix 2-3 of them in with a decent defensive force of your own, and suddenly they're wrecking balls! Covered by your other troops, you can reliably whittle away at the enemy forces attacking you, as you're almost guaranteed to get 2-3 golem hits each combat round!
Wrt developing a cb economodel for testing....I dunno. I definitely see the value to that though, and will do some checking into it...
-=Vel=-
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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:21
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Good plan, JMarks! I'll write those up as well, and add them to the list!
And here are a few additional ideas I'd been toying around with in my head....not fully fleshed out yet, just stuff to get your mind turning on the subject:
More spell ideas:
Fire School Ashes to Ashes
Level:
Cost: 4 plus special
Area of Effect: 1 or more units in target army
Description: Select target enemy army. For every point of mana you spend above and beyond the casting cost, target army loses one unit at random. For every unit so killed, your next turn's income drops by 10g. No more than 10 mana may be spent above and beyond the casting cost of the spell, and this spell may not be cast more than once per turn by any single player. This spell is not available to players with positive honor.
Earth School And Dust to Dust
Level:
Cost:
Area of Effect: Target Army
Description: Any casualties you take during the course of battle are not deducted from your army until the battle is over. Troops slain in battle simply rise from the dead and continue fighting. This effect lasts until the start of your next turn. Note that the spell ends immediately if your army takes a number of casualties equal to the total number of troops in the army (as soon as all troops in the army have been marked as 'killed,' all your undead soldiers fall back to the ground and remain there). This spell may not be cast by any player who has a positive honor rating.
Miracle Noble Sacrifice
Level:
Cost:
Area of Effect: Target Army
Description: Sacrifice a leader you control to utterly destroy target enemy army. This spell may not be cast if you have no leader available, and may only be cast by players with a positive honor rating.
Artificer School BoneYard
Level:
Cost:
Area of Effect: Target Army
Description: Target enemy army sees its Defensive Rating reduced to zero until the start of your next turn. Every hit you inflict on target army by Archers counts double.
Air School Witching Way
Level: 1
Cost: 10
Area of Effect: None
Description: Next turn, add 15 mana to your mana pool.
Artificer School Philosopher's Well
Level: 1
Cost: 5 + 5g
Area of Effect: Target Mana Well
Description: From now until the end of your current turn, any mana in target Mana Well may be removed and converted to gold at a 2:1 ratio (1 point of mana = 2 gold). This gold is evenly divided between your peacetime (infrastructure) and wartime (troop) budgets.
Water School Mana Drain
Level:
Cost:
Area of effect: Target opponent's empire.
Description: Target opponent gains no mana on the following turn. Any mana wells that player has must roll against a d20 (1-4 Mana well is completely emptied) (5-15 Mana well is drained to half its current total) (16-20 No effect on Mana Well).
Air School Mana Surge
Level:
Cost:
Area of effect: Target opponent's empire
Description. Target opponent gains no mana on the following turn. On your next turn, you gain X mana, where X is equal to the amount of mana your opponent would have gained.
Air School Lightning Storm
Level: 1
Cost: 12
Area of effect: Target Army
Description: Select target army. d6 troops in target army (random) are killed. Leaders are immune to this spell.
Fire School Wildfires
Level: 1
Cost: 15
Area of effect: Target province
Description: Select target province. That province is subjected to wild fires that spring up all over it. Province produces no income on owning player's next turn.
Just burning off some excess creative energy, and putting more ideas out there for consideration....
-=Vel=-
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BigRich
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of the Trentan
May 2001
time: 05:21
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quote:
Originally posted by ravagon
In the matter of building focii, historically these were reputed to be nexus points at the intersection of a number of (call them what you will) "ley lines" for want of a better name (I wouldn't use that terminology though as you may run into copyright probs ).
ie: You probably want to restrict such a "place of power" to a maximum of one in a province and none in any of the surrounding provinces. Might create interesting permutations if a faction wants to build a new focus in a border province adjacent to a province containing another factions focus.
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Ravagon,
Check out the 'Magic in Candle'Bre, a public discussion' thread. You may have to hunt back a ways in the forum.
In a nutshell, IIRC, nexus points / sigils were indeed to be found on leyline intersections. There were also four types of leyline - one for each element. Sigils (possibly with a mage standing on em) were required to cast the more powerful spells. The more leylines passing through a sigil, the more powerful it was (with scope for 'cross elemental' spells using more than one element). Finally it was to be possible to build a leyline tapping building in a province. This would kinda siphon off the power of a leyline and feed it into a sigil. Say for example you had a sigil on the intersection of an Earth and a Fire leyline and a nearby province with an Air leyline passing through it. Put the appropriate building in that province and presto - you've got yourself an Earth/Air/Fire sigil, which allows for correspondingly more powerful spells.
The thread is *much* more informative though - and I have no idea what model Vel has currently dreamed up
Couple of quick thoughts on the spells at the moment.
- Earthquake is a touch overpowered to my mind. I would give each building some sort of saving throw (not necessarily terribly high, or have some sort of penalty for wrecking an entire province (a la Firestorm).
- Firestorm graphics - rain of meteors onto target province.
- New spell - Sigil Fluctuations.
Level: 1
School: any elemental
Cost: 3 mana per turn
Area of effect: 1 sigil of focusing.
Description: When cast on an enemy sigil, this spell temporarily unbalances the magical energies flowing through it, preventing that sigil from being used. Spell may be maintained for a maximum of 5 turns. Additionally there is a 10% chance per turn that the unbalanced sigil will go 'critical' and become permanently useless.
- New spell - Sigil Harmonics
Level: 3
School: Any elemental
Cost: 10
Area of effect: 1 province containing a focusing sigil
Description: A more powerful version of the Sigil Fluctuation spell, Sigil Harmonics explosivel disrupts the balance of magical forces running through the sigil. The sigil melts down into a useless puddle and the magical backlash that this causes destroys any magic related buildings in the Province.
- New spell - Sigil Disruption.
Level: 5
School: Any elemental
Cost 30
Area of effect: variable.
Description: Intended for the final game version only, this is a potent derivative of the Sigil Harmonics spell. When cast on an enemy sigil, Sigil Disruption has exactly the same effect on the surrounding Province as Sigil Harmonics. The magical backblast however is controlled, amplified and transmitted down the leylines feeding the sigil to adjacent provinces. The adjacent provinces then make a saving throw for sigil destruction and magical building destruction (if present). If a sigil is present and destroyed by the spell, then the spell 'jumps' again to yet more provinces. These provinces have a significantly better chance of resisting the spell's effects.
Note: In the final game (according to latest version available on forum), any of the above spells could be used as countermagic. Say a faction has specialised in Earth and Fire magiks. That faction can then cast a 'Sigil' spell only on enemy Fire or Earth based sigils. Also acts a balance on the more powerful multi-element sigils, as these naturally become more vulnerable to the above spells.
Rich
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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:21
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Morning all! GREAT stuff here today as I sign on this morning from work!
Essentially, the only thing that's conspicuously absent from this model that differentiates it from the one proposed from the final game are the absence of the elemental sigils themselves.
Of course, that's a wampum big thing that's missing, and it changes the entire character of the magic system. Even so, I think this "skeletal approach" gives us a pretty good image of things to come!
(Ahh, and one other big difference....LOTS fewer spells in this build)
Some observations:
I LOVE the notion of general utility spells, available to all, or at least to all elemental schools. That's good stuff.
Golem Bombs! Intriguing idea....actually, this gives me a related idea...seems like if anybody would try to build "landmines" (offensively or defensively) it'd be the Artificers...might be another interesting spell/effect to give them....friendly troops can cross the path/enter the protected province with no problem, but enemy troops...BOOM! - Another use - as you mentioned, bombing/demolishing enemy provincial improvements and such...I like it!
JMarks makes a good observation, too, about taking care to ensure that the spells we decide to use don't "infringe on" the turf of the Fate Cards too much. So far, I think we're okay there, but it's something to be on constant guard against.
Keep the ideas coming! I'll spend some time throughout today sorting what we've got by school and we can get a better feel for what areas need shoring up, what areas might be heading into unbalance.
-=Vel=-
PS: Note re: Earthquake - just checked the text....buildings get a save, but only have a 50% chance of making that save....will ratchet that downward some to take some of the power out of the spell (especially since the spell also causes troop death if buildings are lost, and troops are present in the province), and see how that looks!
-V.
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:21
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I don't know if comments here are still being appreciated, it is the 17th already in Belgium. But even if not useable for this version, maybe it could be an idea later on.
Re: counterspells.
I like the ideas of wards which protect against spells, and can be cast on armies or provinces, and some ideas in that respect: What if you have counterspells on certain levels (1-5), which can protect against any other spell of the same, or lower level. Further, the cost could go up by level, and duration might be limited by the upkeep (say an upkeep of 1 for a level 1 counterspell, upkeep of 5 for level 5).
So, a counter spell of level 3 would protect an army or province to earth spells of level 3, as well as fire spells of level 1, but not to any spell of level 4 or 5.
Further ideas: What if you gave some of these spells to all schools, and divide the others amongst the schools? E.g., all schools have a level 2 and level 4 counter spell, but only the elementals have level 1, only the miracles have level 3, and only the artifice have level 5. Casting a counterspell of level 4 when you know (or suspect) that the enemy only has access to level 3 would cost you too much manna to cast, and upkeep it, and is thus a bad choice. Another idea is to provide all schools with all levels of counterspell, but give each school a counter spell of its own, of a certain level, and cheaper then normal. The miracle school could be given 2 of these if needed. ("Vade retro, Satanas")
I hope that counter spells will not be visible to the enemy, so that he actually wastes manna on it
Last idea: what if any counterspell is automatically disolved the turn after it protected against a spell? No upkeep anymore, but protection will mean another casting cost. Or even better: the counterspell stops working, and another castingcost will be needed, but half of the manna of the casted enemy spell is absorbed by the counterspell, and added to your own pool. Thus, if you have a level 5 protection, and he casts a level 1 spell, you would for instance loose 10 in casting cost, gaining 2 of absorbed manna, while if he would have casted a level 5 spell, you loose the same 10, but gain 25, netting you 15.
DeepO
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09-08-2002 22:13
's okay, you made me look! Had me worried for a second! 
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