10-08-2002 02:45									#1
	Extra Pack, Existing Civs, part5: Russia, Japan, France Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Russia:



Cities:
Moskva
Petrograd
Kiev
Novgorod
Smolensk
Volgograd
Minsk
Pskov
Vitebsk
Mogilev
Borodino
Kharkov
Kursk
Belgorod
Voronezh
Djnepropetrovsk
Saratov
Kazan
Gorky
Kaluga
Vologda
Astrakhan
Tyumen
Tobolsk
Surgut
Orsk
Orenburg
Omsk
Novosibirsk
Semipalatinsk
Tomsk
Krasnoyarsk
Irkutsk
Yakutsk
Khabarovsk
Vladivostok
Petropavlovsk
Archangelsk
Murmansk
Ekaterinburg
Perm
Ufa
Karaganda
Rostov
Sevastopol
Yaroslavl
Odessa
Kaliningrad
Sverdlovsk
Donezk
Kuibyshev
Krasnodar
Uralsk
Norilsk
Novokusnjetsk
Sachalinsk
Saporoshje
Magnitogorsk
Nikolajev
Chabaraovsk
Komsomolsk
Pensa
Barnaul

Leaders:
Volodymyr
Trotsky
Stalin
Lenin
Kruschev
Ivan the Terrible
Ivan III
Peter the Great
Bagration
Brusilov
Tuchachevski
Shukov
Konev

	10-08-2002 02:47									#2
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Cities:
Kyoto
Tokyo
Osaka
Edo
Satsuma
Kobe
Kagoshima
Sakai
Nagoya
Fukuoka
Izumo
Nagasaki
Yokohama
Shimonoseki
Matsuyama
Sapporo
Hakodate
Ise
Toyama
Kitakyushu
Fukushima
Suo
Morioka
Bizen
Echizen
Nagano
Omi
Kushiro
Echigo
Kozuke
Aomori
Yamagata
Tamakomai
Sendai
Hachinohe
Iwaki
Kitami
Hitachi
Hirosaki
Koriyama
Naha
Obihiro
Nagaoka
Sakata
Wakayama
Niigata
Otaru
Himeji
Utsunomiya
Ishinomaki
Tottori
Ube
Toyama
Gifu
Maebashi
Matsue
Numazu
Takaoka
Muroran
Okayama
Shizuoka
Kanazawa
Mito
Beppu
Kure
Hamamatsu
Omuta Oita
Komatsu
Sado
Karume
Takamatsu
Toyohashi
Sasebo
Fukui
Chiba
Kumamoto
Tokushima
Nara
Nobeoka
Kofu
Kochi
Miyazaki


Leaders: Not done yet!

	10-08-2002 02:49									#3
	France Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Cities:
Paris
Orleans
Lyons
Rheims
Tours
Marseilles
Chartres
Avignon
Bordeaux
Besancon
Rouen
Grenoble
Dijon
Amiens
Cherbourg
Nantes
Poitiers
Toulouse
Lilles
Calais
Nancy
Le Havre
Bayonne
La Rochelle
Angers
Montpellier
Perpignan
Brest
Nimes
Rennes
Limoges
Beauvais
Blois
Metz
St. Etienne
Caen
Sedan
Dieppe
Aix en Provence
Fontainebleau
Verdun
Nice
Bayonne
Toulon
Nevers
St. Lô
Cognac
Geneve
Lausanne
Bergerac
Villeurbanne
Rochefort
Arles
Cherbourg
Troyes
Tourcoing
Carcassone
Albi
Aurillac
Le Puy
Beziers
Roubaix
Soissans
Lorient
Le Mans
Lisieux
Lourdes
Biarritz
Bourges

Leaders:
Napoleon Bonaparte
Richelieu
De Gaulle
Robespierre
Aliénor d'Aquitaine
Mazarin
Charles Martel
Phillipe August
Louis XIV
Davout
Clemenceau
Foch
Coligny
Du Guesclin
Gilles de Rais
Bayard
Enghien
Petain
Clemenceau

Last edited by Wernazuma III on 14-08-2002 at 02:31

	10-08-2002 15:03									#4
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Some French leaders other than Louis, and supposing that Jeanne (we should change leader names into the correct language, too!) stays #1.

Bonaparte
Charlemagne
De Gaulle
Lancelot
Maginot
Pepin
De Richelieu
Robespierre
Roland

And, of course, Elaeonore d'Aquitane.

	10-08-2002 15:11									#5
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Russia:
I don't see St. Peterburg, have you left that out or is it called something else in "russian".

France:
Rheims should be Reims
Lyons =Lyon
Marseilles =Marseille
Cherbourg and Bayonne are listed 2 times
Lausanne is a city in Switzerland
Orleans = Orléans

Rest looks good!

	10-08-2002 16:34									#6
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Missing in the city list of France:

Charleville-Mézières
Clermont-Ferrand
Limoges
Mulhouse
Versailles

Lilles = Lille or rather Rijssel (it's the Flemish-speaking zone of France)
Aix en Provence = Aix-en-Provence
Nimes = Nîmes
Soissans = Soissons

Monaco is not part of France

	10-08-2002 17:26									#7
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quote: When WWI broke out in August 1914 it was decided to change the name of the Russian capital from St. Petersburg to Petrograd. The old name sounded too German for contemporary Russians.

I simply wanted to use the "russianized" name, but I'm not sure.


To the French cities: Thanks, I've done the changes. Except for removing Geneve and Lausanne and Monaco. After all, the German city list includes Strassburg and Basel and Bern and Stettin...

	10-08-2002 17:37									#8
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Ribbanah: Would you leave "Saint" as title? Queen Jeanne sounds even more dumb, what shall we do?

Bonaparte - certainly
Charlemagne - OK
De Gaulle - of course
Lancelot - I think we should leave out mythical people
Maginot - I don't know. I don't think about "Great" when thinking about Maginot. But of course I only know the line and nothing about the person
Pepin - Just like we left out German leaders before Charlemagne, so we should for the French
De Richelieu - OK
Robespierre - OK
Roland - Mythical?

And, of course, Elaeonore d'Aquitane. - You mean Aliénor (to stay with correct French). Good choice, but she could also be an English leader (as much as her son Richard)


I'll also add Mazarin. Should we have some Louis in there? Should we simply name him Louis or Louis XIV?

	10-08-2002 22:45									#9
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More potential French leaders:

Charles Martel
Phillipe August
Louis XIV
Davout
Clemenceau
Foch
Petain

	11-08-2002 03:42									#10
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Petain? Do you really think? (Added him for the meanwhile anyway...)

	11-08-2002 04:05									#11
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Re: Lausanne etc.

If ethnic group is decisive rather than nationality we should not include Lille (Rijssel) or any other city of Dutch origin.

Monaco btw is not a city. If you insist on including a city from the small independent principality you can take Monte Carlo.

Last edited by Ribannah on 11-08-2002 at 04:10

	11-08-2002 04:20									#12
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What' everyone else's opinion on that? Frankly, I've never heard of Lille being a Dutch city.

I agree with you in general though. If Lille is really more Dutch than French in culture and language, it should not be in the French list. Or maybe have Rijsel AND Lille, like we have in several other cases.

	11-08-2002 23:36									#13
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Keep Lille in the french list, remove Monaco.

	12-08-2002 02:19									#14
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2:0. Monaco removed

	13-08-2002 01:26									#15
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For Russia leaders, is Shukov another spelling of WWII Field Marshal Zhukov? If yes, good, if not, add Zhukov to the list.

	13-08-2002 01:37									#16
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Yes Shukov must be the same as Zhukov.

If Jeanne d'Arc stays as the leader of the French her title should be Saint imo.

	13-08-2002 03:48									#17
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quote: If Jeanne d'Arc stays as the leader of the French her title should be Saint imo.

Her title should be Sainte (she wasn't a queen )

quote: Petain? Do you really think?

Hmm... Pétain did great things during the WWI, but not during the WWII... so I think it should not be in the list

For leaders:
Bonaparte should rather be Napoléon (or Napoléon Ier)
De Richelieu : "Richelieu" is sufficient I think (or Cardinal de Richelieu)
De Lattre

And about Lausanne, Genêve, etc, I think Lille and Strasbourg should be in France, Lausanne, Basel, Genêve and Bern in Switzerland (Bern is the capital of Switzerland so I think it should be in Switzerland and not in Germany... seems more logical... ), etc... each city in its country...

	14-08-2002 00:58									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Ribannah Some French leaders other than Louis, and supposing that Jeanne (we should change leader names into the correct language, too!) stays #1. Bonaparte Charlemagne De Gaulle Lancelot Maginot Pepin De Richelieu Robespierre Roland And, of course, Elaeonore d'Aquitane.

Bonaparte OK
Charlemagne which country ? France or Germany
De Gaulle OK
Lancelot NO
Maginot NO
Pepin NO
De Richelieu No need of 'De'
Robespierre Political leader
Roland (yes, good choice)

Some more ideas
Du Guesclin (hero of the 100 year's war)
Gilles de Rais (marshal of France during Joan of Arc's time)
Bayard (often called the last real knight)
Enghien (Duke of) defeated the Spanish tercios and protected the young Louis XIVth's kingdom
Clemenceau the political leader who enabled the victory of the first world war. Petain was his military counterpart but since he did it through the killing of waves of soldiers and since his behavior during the second world war was not so nice (did he have the choice ? is another question).
D'Artagnan for the ones who like Dumas or the numerous movies
Surcouf famous French privateer
Coligny French admiral and general of the French protestant until St Barthelemy

	14-08-2002 02:29									#19
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French leaders updated.

	14-08-2002 02:36									#20
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Wernazuma, do we get an icon for female Great Leaders such as Aliénor d'Aquitaine?

	14-08-2002 04:08									#21
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[QUOTE] Originally posted by Wernazuma III


I simply wanted to use the "russianized" name, but I'm not sure.


I think the correct russianized spelling would be Sankt Peterburg. If I'm not mistaken Petrograd was a post revolutionary name prior to Lenin's death, after which it became Leningrad.

Reminds me of a tale I heard once (possibly tall). The Soviets did a four question survey: Where were you born? Where did you go to school? Where do you live? Where would you like to live? To which someone responded: Saint Petersburg, Petrograd, Leningrad, Saint Petersburg.

	14-08-2002 04:16									#22
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Charlemagne shouldn't be in France nor in Deutschland... (though he started in France and then conquered Germany hmm I think many Germans would say the contrary)

If Lancelot can't be here, I don't undertsand why d'Artagnan should

Gilles de Rais... hmm... I was accused of satanism, abduction, chlid and women murder, sodomy, etc... that's not exactly what I would call "a Great Leader" ...

Maybe Charlemagne was not really French, but Pepin III was the first King of the Frankish Carolingian Dynasty (and the father of Charlemagne). He must be in the list

And Bonaparte should be Napoléon or Napoléon Bonaparte (or "Napoléon Bonaparte, Grand Empereur des Français et conquérant de l'Europe" but maybe it's a bit much )

That's all

	14-08-2002 04:27									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Schee Charlemagne shouldn't be in France nor in Deutschland... (though he started in France and then conquered Germany hmm I think many Germans would say the contrary)

I only know that he said he was "diutisce" and not "walahisce". The "diutisce" is the root of "Deutsch", whereas the "Welsch" meant the language of romanized Celts, or romanic languages in general (it still does today in many parts)

quote: If Lancelot can't be here, I don't undertsand why d'Artagnan should

Don't worry, neither will be in

quote: Gilles de Rais... hmm... I was accused of satanism, abduction, chlid and women murder, sodomy, etc... that's not exactly what I would call "a Great Leader" ...

Maybe a reason to remove him again

quote: Maybe Charlemagne was not really French, but Pepin III was the first King of the Frankish Carolingian Dynasty (and the father of Charlemagne). He must be in the list

As someone already said: Maybe it's a good idea simply not to include any German or French leader before the separation of the Frankish Empire.

Napoléon changed.

	14-08-2002 04:29									#24
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Sub Limey: Probably you're right, I'll change it back again. But AFAIK, St. Petersburg was renamed in 1914 because it sounded "too German"...

	14-08-2002 04:53									#25
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Hmm about Charlemagne, Germany, France, etc you're right. No leader before the separation of the Frankish Empire. And we shouldn't talk about Charlemagne again. That would be better. Though......

And about Saint Petersburg :

quote: Found here In 1914, the town changed its name from the German Sankt Petersburg into Russian Petrograd, but after Lenin died in 1924 it was renamed into Leningrad. Just before the end of the Soviet period, in 1991, the city's inhabitants decided to go back to its original name Sankt Peter(s)burg

[edit] But its region is always called Leningrad. Strange, isn't it ? no ? [/edit]

	14-08-2002 05:03									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Wernazuma III I only know that he said he was "diutisce" and not "walahisce". The "diutisce" is the root of "Deutsch", whereas the "Welsch" meant the language of romanized Celts, or romanic languages in general (it still does today in many parts)

"Walahisce" probably denotes "Waals" (Wallonic, French).
"Diutisce" could very well equal Dutch rather than Deutsch, since the low lands were a firm part of his empire while eg Saxony was only really conquered much later and more eastern parts of Germany were never part of his empire.

Charlemagne was king of the Franks - officially so, approved by the Pope as was the custom in those days.
Not of the Teutons.
While the Franks originally started out in a part of Germany, they extended their territory to the west.
Even while France not exactly equalled Franks in Charlemagne's days (there were eg Gallicians and Bretons to consider) in view of the above I'd say that he belongs on the French list of leaders only; I'm still inclined to pick him over Jeanne d'Arc as the eternal Leader of France.

	14-08-2002 21:38									#27
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I think you got some point, yet not completely. I think the terms "Wallonic" and "Dutch" simply reflect this old division between Germanic languages and romanic languages.
The Teutons were never a people anyway and the Franks were not French. They weren't Germans either, they were Franks (and Charlemagne spoke diutisce )...

	14-08-2002 21:58									#28
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Hmm... I can't keep silent :

quote: the Franks were not French. They weren't Germans either

OK the Franks were not really French, but "Frankreich" looks like "Frank", no ? And if the France is named Frank Empire by Germans, I think that the Franks were more French than Germans... And the French currency was (before €) the Franc...

	14-08-2002 22:14									#29
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France is called Frankreich because the Eastern half (Germany) developed into the Holy Roman Empire and so it was called for quite a while. That doesn't mean that Germans are more Roman though...

	22-08-2002 08:40									#30
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Sankt-Peterburg

At least thats how my atlas lists it.