16-08-2002 04:19									#121
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Ah the joys of repetitive drills. We just turned out our 10th warrior general. What was the time. 14:32. Not acceptable, we must get better. 12:00 is doable. Run the drill again.

	16-08-2002 04:19									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Tuberski MING?! In a Civ 3 forum?! You aren't actually getting interested in PTW are you?

To your first point... I am a mod for this forum... and to your second point, I can only answer, no comment

	16-08-2002 04:21									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Ming To your first point... I am a mod for this forum... and to your second point, I can only answer, no comment

I know your a mod, but if you aren't banning, you don't usually bother.


Of course, you DID mention Civ2 MP in your post.......

	16-08-2002 04:21									#124
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It's only because Ming is a bastard.

	16-08-2002 04:23									#125
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He sees me posting and figures the odds are pretty good this thread will at least have to be closed soon.

Right Ming?

	16-08-2002 04:24									#126
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quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick He sees me posting and figures the odds are pretty good this thread will at least have to be closed soon. Right Ming?

So do I actually!!!

	16-08-2002 04:26									#127
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I used to be very active... and then I got bored playing the AI. I went back to playing Civ II MP, because playing other humans is far superior to playing a stupid AI. I look forward to the release of PTW... and I truely hope they deliver a sutible replacement for Civ II MP

But back to Zachriel's point...
"If there is no defense to the rush, then Civ ceases being a strategy game."

This thread has now gone full circle.

HappySunShine states in his first post that the random nature of combat negates the rush strategy... And he was wondering if it was going to be fixed. So yes... according to probably the best master of the rush strategy... there is a defense against it now... a more random combat system

	16-08-2002 04:28									#128
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Modding the hp's of different age units can kill the randomness factor to a certain degree. Of course, in MP everybody would have to agree to do that.

	16-08-2002 04:29									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Ming HappySunShine states in his first post that the random nature of combat negates the rush strategy... And he was wondering if it was going to be fixed. So yes... according to probably the best master of the rush strategy... there is a defense against it now... a more random combat system

Well, in that case I'll just build warriors my next game then.

	16-08-2002 04:30									#130
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Good point Ming.

	16-08-2002 04:31									#131
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Yes, ranodm factor makes early rushes more risky.

And I don't think that it's problem.

This is TBS not RTS.

Of course, if you realy like early rushes, then it's your problem.

Since you'll need to chnage your stratgey a little.
(if you are going to win)

	16-08-2002 04:34									#132
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quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick Good point Ming.

MY GOD... JT AGREES WITH ME...




And I will build tons of warriors too... Granted, they will die more often than stronger units, but nowhere near as bad as they do in the Civ II combat model. In Civ II, they are almost worthless in terms of combat. In Civ III, they can be very effective early in the game.

	16-08-2002 04:34									#133
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The more random nature of combat in conjunction with the way stacks are handled in civ3 means a player who techs is not going to be able to defend very easily against a player who churns.

	16-08-2002 04:37									#134
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Ming...I agree.....now repeat after me....AZTEC!

-=Vel=-

	16-08-2002 04:39									#135
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Argh, a Jaguar Warrior rush! Someone ban that civ for MP, quick!

	16-08-2002 04:41									#136
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Seriously tho...I *do* hope JT's prediction rings true....and there are a number of things that point to the fact that it just might work out that way. There are some good opportunities for the defensive game in Civ3....against the AI, it's useless to explore, since the AI is easy to beat, but against a human....I dunno. I'll be curious to see how it goes tho....

-=Vel=-
(fingers crossed, but just in case, I'll keep the Aztecs close at hand and ready!) - Hey...if you're gonna rush, why not do it from 4000BC?

	16-08-2002 04:41									#137
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Ming, thats a little spamy, isn't there a limit on smilies per post?

	16-08-2002 04:42									#138
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I really don't see how you guys can claim rushing is going to be harder here then wax lyrical about how you're going to mass warriors.........a strat that would pay no dividend in a game like civ2 where rushing is allegedly easier.

The stacking, the support, and the more random combat _all_ point to more tactically oriented style games. Please tell me why rushing is harder in civ3MP.

	16-08-2002 04:43									#139
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Vel, the UUs will have to be turned off man.

	16-08-2002 04:48									#140
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Ahhh....I know....a pity, but necessary. And, without civ specific abilities (no industrious, religious, or any of the other coolio traits), we'll be beating each other up with plain vanilla ice cream, which will weight all MP games even more heavily on starting position (which further means that almost no GOOD, well-balanced MP game will ever be played on a random map).

The more I think about it, the less jazzed I am about MP. The only thing you get is better opponents, at the loss of everything that makes the various civs unique.

Bleh!

-=Vel=-

	16-08-2002 04:54									#141
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quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick Vel, the UUs will have to be turned off man.

Maybe... maybe not.

What if every player was given the option of choosing his two "traits"... and to choose a UU... therefore creating their own civ. This would stop the RACE for people picking the "best" civ, and would allow all players to set up a combination that they would be happy with.

	16-08-2002 04:54									#142
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I agree DrSpike.

The fact that warriors can overcome fortified spearmen quite frequently means that a rush will be very possible as a strat in my mind.

	16-08-2002 04:55									#143
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I like the sounds of it Ming, but I'll not hold my breath that that's how it's gonna be....we'll know soon tho....

-=Vel=-

	16-08-2002 04:58									#144
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Dr. Spike: I don't really know how MP will shake out yet. My HOPE is that rushing will be harder, but I *know* it'll be the first tactic out the gate when MP hits. Has been for as long as I can remember!

It'd be awesome if someone would finally kill that particular horse, which has been ridden to near-death, and IMO, spoils a lot of the fun and potential subtlety in these types of games, but if not.....hey, it's a powerful tactic....*shrug*

-=Vel=-

	16-08-2002 05:00									#145
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quote: Originally posted by Ming What if every player was given the option of choosing his two "traits"... and to choose a UU... therefore creating their own civ. This would stop the RACE for people picking the "best" civ, and would allow all players to set up a combination that they would be happy with.

Or you rate the various civs by how well they start in various eras, and you handicap the players based on record. Then when setting up a game you agree on which 'class' of civs each player may chose from.

Give the beginner the choice of any civ, including Zulu and Aztec. The most experienced players are limited to the US, England, and France (or some such).

No mods required.

	16-08-2002 05:00									#146
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx I like the sounds of it Ming, but I'll not hold my breath that that's how it's gonna be....we'll know soon tho.... -=Vel=-

I agree... I'm not holding my breath on this one. But it has been brought up before, and the suggetion has been made repeatedly.

Give us options... and then... more options. That way, we can design an MP experience for anybodies tastes

	16-08-2002 05:04									#147
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quote: Originally posted by DrSpike I really don't see how you guys can claim rushing is going to be harder here then wax lyrical about how you're going to mass warriors.........a strat that would pay no dividend in a game like civ2 where rushing is allegedly easier. The stacking, the support, and the more random combat _all_ point to more tactically oriented style games. Please tell me why rushing is harder in civ3MP.

1. Movement restrictions in enemy territory.
2. Can't use howitzers with blitz on enemy railroads to run the board.
3. Bombard (and air) units can't kill units and allow paratroops to capture cities.
4. Airports have been toned down a bit.
5. Good defensive unit values, good defensive modifiers (terrain and city based)
6.Can post unit on mountains and see further for early warning.
7. Conscription and mobilization favors the defender who has shorter line of reinforcement.
8. Radar towers?
9. Artillery auto fire will be a meaningful factor.
10. We might get some partisans in PTW, I hope.

	16-08-2002 05:08									#148
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Rushing won't be harder.

It would be just RISKIER.

Wanna flip a coin?

	16-08-2002 05:12									#149
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All this talk of rushing in MP puts me in mind of one thing. And that is that I am so very glad my favorite MP games are ones were rushing is almost completely impossible. I don't say completely impossible because someone would probably find a way to do it.

The games are Firaxis's Gettysburg, and Talonsoft's Battleground series (The Napoleonic Wars ones are my favorites). Essentially they are games about the art of manuever. Putting the right forces in the right place at the right time to break the fighting spirit of the enemy.

I for one am glad that rushing may be much more difficult in Civ3 than it was in Civ2. I don't like rushing. I consider it the most simplistic tactic anyone can use. It probably takes AI programmers all of maybe half a day to teach their games to build a giant mass of units as fast as possible and throw them at you until they win. It probably takes them months to teach the games to perform scouting probes, feints, and other more subtle manuevers to keep you off balance as to where the real center of mass is and where your defense and counter-offense should be.

And if I'm going to lose a game to someone else, I would much rather it be an enjoyable one where I can say afterwords "I really thought you were going to come at me from the north with your Cavalry. I never expected a sea-ward invasion from the southwest." or other words to that effect. Not "Well I guess it is pretty hard to win against 500 warriors coming at me head-on."

	16-08-2002 05:13									#150
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither I agree DrSpike. The fact that warriors can overcome fortified spearmen quite frequently means that a rush will be very possible as a strat in my mind.

A vet warrior will win against a regular fortified spearman in a town one in five tries. If I have a vet spearman fortified on a hilled town you will fail 95%+ of the time. Bring it.