10-08-2002 13:24									#1
	Advice: Small change with culture flip mechanic Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Core of the problem:
It's realy not a flip itself, it's lost units during that flip (and that can be lot of units). Sometimes it kills suspension of disbelief if you lose so many unit just for "culture flkup".




A twaek:
Instead of killing all units, flip should kill 3-5 units (should depend from several factors, like city population).
If city had less then 3-5 units, it should be same as before (no change).
If it had more units, it should lose just 3-5 units and NOT flip.
You should get message that there is a rebbelion in city and that your generals don't know how long they can hold out.

Of course, every next turn you'll lose another group of 3-5 units, exept if you put in even higher number of military units (and thus prevent flip), or pull remaing troops out of city (in that case city flips, but you keep some forces).
Newly fliped city should then get several free units to prevent quick retake.
(and units you pulled out, should suffer from ZOC bombarding while pulliong out)



P.S.
If Firaxis implements something similar to this, I would find culture flips to be enjoyable part of Civ3 game.
For know, they are just irritation (losing 10 units and an army due to flip).

	10-08-2002 20:30									#2
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I like this idea, I can imagnine your troops fleeing an angry populace forced to retreat to your side of the border.

The surviving units should possibly be damaged, maybe in the red, and would need to go back to base ande heal up before any offensive action.

	10-08-2002 20:59									#3
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I think that resistance for captured citys should still be dependent on culture, but last alot longer. Rebelling citizens should have a % chance each turn of damaging garrisoned military units or destroying military and cultural improvments. I think this would more accuratly represent the difficulty of occuping foreign citys, especialy those of people with a strong sense of nationality and pride (in games terms "culture").

Through out history, conquering territory has often been easier than keeping it (just ask Alexander the great, the Romans, the Huns, the Monguls, Neopolian, the British, the Nazis, the Soviets, etc, etc.....) In the game however, the opposite is true.

	10-08-2002 21:16									#4
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Good idea, but I think intead of wiping out units they should be put on tiles adjacent to the city with 1 hit point. The city should have some defensive unit(s) in it representing the resisters who through you out. Not a great chance of taking it back if your units only have one hit point, and odds are you'd just make the "resister" units Elites!

	10-08-2002 21:19									#5
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This would definately be an improvement over the current culture flipping setup.

	10-08-2002 21:42									#6
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb Good idea, but I think intead of wiping out units they should be put on tiles adjacent to the city with 1 hit point. The city should have some defensive unit(s) in it representing the resisters who through you out. Not a great chance of taking it back if your units only have one hit point, and odds are you'd just make the "resister" units Elites!

Having several unit which would die instantly in first turn s still needed, to reflect very easy "rebellion" victories if city was guarded with just 2-4 units (instant flip).

All other units should have chance to stay alive.

	11-08-2002 00:43									#7
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i'd just like the units to flee from the city with 1hp

	11-08-2002 04:52									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Pythagoras I like this idea, I can imagnine your troops fleeing an angry populace forced to retreat to your side of the border. The surviving units should possibly be damaged, maybe in the red, and would need to go back to base ande heal up before any offensive action.

Yes, yes.

I've said it for months. Disappearing garrisons is ridiculous and a mockery of history. If Firaxis INSISTS upon forcing this flipping stuff on us the least they can do is have a system where units are EJECTED, with damage, AND are not alowed to attack for a few turns.

This would eliminate the concern of the ejected garrison marching right back in.

But since Firaxis has said NO MORE PATCHES, and since they refuse to do anything about it in PTW, I won't be getting PTW.

	11-08-2002 07:17									#9
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Is that a promise?

	11-08-2002 08:13									#10
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Civ3 could do with a partisan unit, prehaps when a city tries to flip it generates a bunch of partisans (maybe 1-2 per pop) that immediately attack the city, if the garrison survive you still have the city, if they lose the winning partisan and all remaining ones move in and garrison the city.

	11-08-2002 14:09									#11
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Ummm... I'm convinced that overwhelming military force should prevent flips entirely.

I lose 3 units. I disband the city. No more flip. I'm a bastard.

In any case, I haven't had a flip away from me since I mastered the intricacies of it. And I won't, I hope.

	11-08-2002 14:22									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Wittlich This would definately be an improvement over the current culture flipping setup.

ANYTHING would be better than the current mess, especially when people start doing "historical" scenarios. You want all your tanks in a WW II scenario to vanish if Dresden flips back to Germany??

	11-08-2002 21:16									#13
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It'd be best IMHO if culture-flipping could be an option at setup.

	11-08-2002 21:17									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Coracle ANYTHING would be better than the current mess, especially when people start doing "historical" scenarios. You want all your tanks in a WW II scenario to vanish if Dresden flips back to Germany??

Now, if there were just 3-4 Tanks, current model would do well.
But in case of 10 Tanks, current model BREAKS.

It's just not fun anymore.

	11-08-2002 21:41									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Coracle But since Firaxis has said NO MORE PATCHES, and since they refuse to do anything about it in PTW, I won't be getting PTW.

You're sure about the second one? I can vaguely recall Jeff Morris saying that unit ejecting was on Firaxis' PtW wishlist, although only with medium priority.