10-08-2002 23:37									#1
	Punishment Spheres Poll Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Here is a poll about Punishment Sphere.
The question is really simple :

Should we consider that Punishment Spheres are atrocities and must therefore be forbidden by the UN Charter ?

	11-08-2002 00:00									#2
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technically, its not . while i'm voting "no" as an atrocity, i do not consider it right, nor would i build one (despite my avatar)

	11-08-2002 00:01									#3
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What I've learned, imagine it yourself; being trapped inside a large sphere where your pain receptors are constantly stimulated, making you hope for death. And the sphere is transparent to spread the terror effect by allowing people to witness the agony. Some might consider PS worse then death penalty.

	11-08-2002 00:03									#4
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Punishment spheres are cruel and inhumane as such they are an atrocitiy in my book and by any stretch of the imagination.

There are better, more humane ways to deal with criminals. We could put them into hard labor camps to serve a sentence, we could do physcological treatment to cure the behavoir or as a last resort ban them from the colony and thus leave them to their own devices on the outside.

E.L. Crisler
Fundamentalist Faction

	11-08-2002 00:05									#5
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my I again say that I do not agree on this poll and that we as the people, when the time comes, can cast a vote on the subject on building one. but not on forehand for it will make the possiblity of making one zero procent. and THAT my dear fellowmembers I believe is very ondemocratic. because if the poll will say yea then in the future any power against PS has the change of recalling this vote ,although it may not be right anymore. and of cours vicaversa

	11-08-2002 00:12									#6
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As a devout Fundamentalist I abhor the usage of Punishment Spheres, especially in the hands of worldly leadership and their fallible political agendas. However, I do recognize that the best tool for evangelizing mislead souls is perhaps to show them a glimpse of what's waiting for them beyond this life, if they choose to keep up with blaspheming the Holy Ghost. No matter how horrible an invention, everything has its place in God's Divine Plan.

Disclaimer: once more the hardliners of Fundamentalist Faction may disagree with majority opinion of the party.

	11-08-2002 00:25									#7
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I voted banana.

	11-08-2002 00:25									#8
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DBTS, someone could always call for a new voting about the use of PSs...

	11-08-2002 00:28									#9
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I know that but still what do you hope to gain from this poll? that it will become a part of the constitution? (not liking that <----) or just a looksee at what people want? (i like that <-------)

	11-08-2002 01:36									#10
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Neither me nor anyone in this Room supports PS

	11-08-2002 01:42									#11
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IMO PS should be left as a last resort in certain circumstances; therefore I don’t believe that we should officially declare them an atrocity preventing their use in all cases.

	11-08-2002 01:52									#12
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What could be worse? Hmmm, mindworm experimentation with live subjects. In the name of science, perhaps?

	11-08-2002 01:53									#13
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt What could be worse? Hmmm, mindworm experimentation with live subjects. In the name of science, perhaps?

That’s a great idea, I can’t believe I didn’t think of that one, let me write it down.

	11-08-2002 04:54									#14
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Isnt there an article in the DEclaration of Human Rights about torture ? Saying its striclty prohibited ?
Didnt the UN ratify this declaration ?

	11-08-2002 07:01									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Pandemoniak Isnt there an article in the DEclaration of Human Rights about torture ? Saying its striclty prohibited ? Didnt the UN ratify this declaration ?

My issue with outright banning the use of Punishment Spheres is that we may not need them at all, but nevertheless we should keep the option open in EXTREME cases where they might be of use. Seeing as they also come with a research penalty I’m certainly not in favor of them, but as a last resort they are effective. And besides, when the crisis is over we can scrap the Punishment Sphere.

	11-08-2002 07:07									#16
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Taking aside my mantle of Commissioner for a moment let me ask a question. When the Fundamentlaist ask for the Fundy SE to be in place people scream bloody murder about how terrible it is on personal freedom and rights. Now granted these people are uninformed but that is beside the point.

Now we are talking about sticking someone in a thing DESIGNED to cause needless pain and torment and these same people are for it?

Does this not just sound wrong to anyone else?

E.L. Crisler
First Commissioner

	11-08-2002 07:18									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Crisler Taking aside my mantle of Commissioner for a moment let me ask a question. When the Fundamentlaist ask for the Fundy SE to be in place people scream bloody murder about how terrible it is on personal freedom and rights. Now granted these people are uninformed but that is beside the point. Now we are talking about sticking someone in a thing DESIGNED to cause needless pain and torment and these same people are for it? Does this not just sound wrong to anyone else? E.L. Crisler First Commissioner

Personally, my opposition to the Fundamentalist SE choice stems mainly from the fact that I do not believe the government has any place in determining and dictating morality; as well as the research penalty. But ultimately the choice will be made by everyone, and everyone will get their opinions heard.

As for the use of Punishment Spheres in scenarios such as the one brought up by the P4 the use of a Punishment Sphere to keep order temporarily is the most logical choice to quell the Drone riots until the proper accommodations can be provided that will keep the population happy. But as I stated before, such a scenario is unlikely to come into play, but nevertheless we should have all tools at our disposal to deal with it, and this includes the use of Punishment Spheres.

Though our arguments against or for it at the moment are pointless seeing as what the majority decide will become policy, and though we may not ultimately agree with it, for the moment we will have to go along with it (though as it stands it is a tie).

	11-08-2002 08:11									#18
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So rather than working quickly to stop the drone issues before they can occur we should waste resources and time to produce a system none of us want to use but will have just in case?

Sorry guys there is no logic here. You make sure to rotate production in such a way that we keep each base in production of facilities that will make sure we have zero or little drone issues.

If we do have a drone issue rather than punishing the people of the city for our failure as leaders to prepare, we bite the bullet and drop production there for a bit, switching drones over to specialists in an effort to stop the riot.

Once it is stopped we move as quickly as we can to produce the facilities needed to keekp the population happy when we send them back to regualr work.

There is ZERO reason for the use of the Punishment Sphere. It is a toll that shows a player lacking skill or with no quams for the atrocity type implications. A skilled player and leadership can plan for and prevent the problems that would call for such a device.

I have expressed a willingness to compromise on my thoughts of using a Fundamentlist SE> I will push for it but am prepared to entertain other ides. On the use of Punishment Spheres there is no discussion, no compromise. With my last breath I will fight this down, with all the power of Commissioner I will work to abolish this as an option.

E.L. Crisler
First Commissioner

E.L. Crisler
First Commissioner.

	11-08-2002 08:21									#19
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quote: So rather than working quickly to stop the drone issues before they can occur we should waste resources and time to produce a system none of us want to use but will have just in case?

Well if we’re not going to use it then what’s the problem with not banning it?

quote: Sorry guys there is no logic here. You make sure to rotate production in such a way that we keep each base in production of facilities that will make sure we have zero or little drone issues.

Yes, we will eliminate drones, and so what’s the problem with not banning PS seeing as we won’t have a need for them?

quote: If we do have a drone issue rather than punishing the people of the city for our failure as leaders to prepare, we bite the bullet and drop production there for a bit, switching drones over to specialists in an effort to stop the riot.

Fine, but again then why ban Punishment Spheres seeing as we wont use them?

quote: Once it is stopped we move as quickly as we can to produce the facilities needed to keekp the population happy when we send them back to regualr work.

quote: There is ZERO reason for the use of the Punishment Sphere. It is a toll that shows a player lacking skill or with no quams for the atrocity type implications. A skilled player and leadership can plan for and prevent the problems that would call for such a device.

See above questions.

	11-08-2002 08:37									#20
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For the same reason we make murder illegal, sure most people never do it so why have the law. How about stealing. Something that is a crime against another person is a crime no matter what and the PS are a crime we as a society should not allow. By banning them we stop all future discussion of their use and we ensure that this atrocity is never given a chance to be performed.

E.L. Crisler
First Commissioner

	11-08-2002 08:44									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Crisler For the same reason we make murder illegal, sure most people never do it so why have the law. How about stealing. Something that is a crime against another person is a crime no matter what and the PS are a crime we as a society should not allow. By banning them we stop all future discussion of their use and we ensure that this atrocity is never given a chance to be performed. E.L. Crisler First Commissioner

True, murder is illegal, unless carried out by the state (this is the case in the United States as it stands). Capital punishment is accepted as a valid punishment for a crime by some countries. Furthermore, you yourself have stated that we will have no use for them, then why should we ban it seeing as we will not have a chance to perform it as you yourself have stated?

And even if we do ban them at this point, all discussion on them would not be stopped. This issue could be brought up again at a later date and the people could choose to amend the constitution. And thus far the NO side is winning this poll, though it is still early to tell the outcome.

So why don’t we stop discussion on this issue for the time being and reconvene on it again IF is comes up?

	11-08-2002 14:05									#22
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Coming out of character for a moment, I'd like to raise a quick point here that was brought up in another thread. PS's aren't actually considered atrocities under the UN charter, as evidenced by the lack of sanctions or negative consequences (The trade off between Talents + Research & Drones isn't exactly a negative consequence. If you went and built the thing somewhere, the trade off is obviously more in your favour.). Therefore all this talk about torture is rather irrelevant. Obviously, dispite whatever ethical or moral implications you may *think* it has, it obviously doesn't have them, or they've been deemed of little consequence considering the advantages these PS's can bring *when used properly*.

Another point to consider, no one is saying we should put one of these in every base, so that research penalty from one is going to be rather insignificant faction wide.

	11-08-2002 14:39									#23
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I don't think they're an atrocity. If you've got a base full of unruly drones who won't stop rioting you've got to do something about them. If they didn't want to punished they shouldn't have rioted in the first place

	11-08-2002 17:03									#24
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We should really close this debate for the moment. All the time wasted to debate of this is time that is not usefull to get the game's rolling. And like I said in the CCCP thread, it isn't the work of the constituate assembly to determine the morale policy of our faction. Their only work is to create an efficient government.

	11-08-2002 17:11									#25
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Must we keep that banana nonsense up here?

	11-08-2002 17:14									#26
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I agree it is to civ like this is SMAC!

	11-08-2002 18:01									#27
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Let's have fungal gin!

	11-08-2002 18:32									#28
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What does it matter? Ban it now, ban EVERYTHING now, in accordance with the UN charter ( we are the Peacekeepers, right?). If we want to revoke things, we will do so later on, if the people want it so. No biggy.

	12-08-2002 00:27									#29
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Well If my party gets official. Then as president of the Power of the Warrior faction I approve the use of Punishment Spheres as a viable means of punishment for repeating offendors and serious crimes such as murder, rape, arson, etc.

President Vladimir Harkonnen of the Power of the Warrior faction

	12-08-2002 05:17									#30
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NO Pspheres!