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Inverse Icarus
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flying too low to the ground
May 2001
time: 00:21
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The Greeks are the number one civ right now (510 BC).
They are decently sized, have a fairly strong culture, and their Hoplites are a unit to be reckoned with.
I have expressed disdain over fighting the Greeks for a while now. The hoplite is one of the UUs i just hate to fight, their 3 defense value is bad enough, but if there's a mountain, all of a sudden you're facing a defense of 6. A calvary unit wouldnt like those odd, much less an archer.
Recently it's beomce evident that Greece will have to be dealt with sooner or later. They settled the Ivory coast, leaving a stretch of land between there and their main empire that will undoubtedly be taken by them (or the Americans, who wont be around mcuh longer).
Their empire is growing stronger and stronger, and we cannot let the Hoplites deter us from toppling them from their throne as the #1 civ. Knights may prove useful quite soon.
This is a thread for general strategies we could use against Greece. Nothing specific, as the map will change a bit between now and whenever we are ready for another war.
I call upon the War Academy to bring forth strategies that could prove useful for the invasion of Greece, should the need arise. Then we could mull over them and have a cohesive plan for when we would need it.
Simple things such as "which cities to take first", "which side to come in from", etc, really aren't that simple. They make all the difference, and now i ask you to help plan.
I have attached a overview of the greek lands, and what Apolytonia will include after this war with France and our next (final) war with the Americans. That is about 20-25 turns in the future.
Draw on the map, no matter how general. Write things down, get everything you can think of down and share it.
Long live Apolytonia.
 Attachment: greece.gif
This has been downloaded 173 time(s).
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Epistax
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of Bananas
May 2001
time: 00:21
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I like a concave empire, not convex. Argos, Delphi, and My--whatever are just too pointy into us.  Then again, those would be the first cities culture would take.. of course they have more culture than us.
Now the ivory coast has been settled, but no single city can take all of the coast-- there is still a perfectly good settling spot.
You mentioned we fear the greek hoplites. But we don't give them too much faith in attacking beyond how we can. So if we extend NW from chicago to the coast, we could declare war, take their northern cities (above us), and possibly attack my--- delphi, and argos. Assuming our cities have walls and spearmen, swordsmen are nothing special to defend against. (I wonder why the AI doesn't make them).
If we take/destroy enough cities, we can sue them bitterly for peace, taking all cash and techs they may have.
None of this would remove them from the #1 position on the count, but it would stop their expansion on our continent, and help secure our borders. We might also steal some cities in the process.
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There are several cities (Athens, Herakleia, Argos) surrounded by mountains, which provide the defense bonus we would need in such a war. I've actually managed to successfully use artillery before to weaken a city's defenses prior to attacking (in the case of Hoplites, this would help). A war with Greece would probably come in the mid-Middle Ages, prior to cannons but after we get knights. Getting a few good-sized stacks onto those mountains, backed up by artillery, we could weaken their defenses enough to be able to take them with minimal casualties.
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Mycenae also has a mountain adjacent to it, and is very close to Timeline and Del Monte (two cities that will most likely become major military production cities in the future).
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adaMada
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"The Iron" Stadium, Ubergorsk, Apolytonia (C3DG)
Mar 2000
time: 00:21
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What if, instead of a long offensive, we were to undertake a quick, thrusting attack. It would fragment our front, but might be more productive than a more sustained attack. The way their empire is now (not that that won't change), we could go up by Chicago, take the size two city nextdoor (Name starts with T and is long, but that's all the detail I can make out ) and then grab Athens. Though that wouldn't work if they made many more cities in that area, we could do something of a similar strike, taking their capital and other major cultural and economic centers, and then suing for peace -- overall, weakening them quite a bit.
I don't know if it's even possible, but in a much later war, we could probably build up a ton of units, put em on boats, and circle the entire contenent -- that, however, would be a major undertaking, and it'd probably just be easier to march our troops streight up.
One last note -- any plan of this sort would probably leave us without a viable supply line, so we'd have to hit hard enough to ensure we can get peace, and we'd have to have enough forces there to last out for a while should we be unable to -- as such, it doesn't seem like a good plan for now. I think, however, that if we could avoid the mountain ranges on both sides of Greece, we'd be much more effective. On the other hand, if we could take those mountain ranges, they could become very lucrative production cities, and might be worthwhile in that aspect.
Just a few random thoughts -- I know it's too early to start detailed planning, but if we had to start planning for a war now, this is how I'd be thinking...
-- adaMada
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Shiber
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Haifa, Israel
Jul 2002
time: 07:21
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quote:
Originally posted by UberKruX
Those cities would be very corrupt.
It's a long boat ride around Abananaba Minor to get boats there.
We'd go through enemy waters, we may have to withdrw (setback or sink).
I think a conventional war is best, but I'm open to suggestions. good ideas here. |
Regarding corruption: we'll switch government types eventually. We'll also have to move the palace and build a forbidden palace somewhere eventually. Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting that we move them to somewhere that would benefit those towns, I'm just making a point.
The boat ride is long, yes, but there are other possible routes. For example, if we can settle in ivory coast we can shorten the boat ride. As for entering enemy waters, by the time we set sail we'll be able to safely traverse sea squares. I was counting on it.
Anyway, it was just a crazy idea. I didn't expect that anyone would actually support it. 
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Captain
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by Divine Right
May 2001
time: 00:21
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If a war with Greece is to be "successful" in achieving what we want, we either need to take a lot of cities, or take a few, very important cities - destroying their productivity and culture per turn lead.
Number one, if we take Athens, we're gold. That will hurt them really bad in every way. Expect huge losses when we attack, unless we can divert their troops somehow (??). Fast movers are essential to avoid them rushing extra defenders.
In order of significance, we need to take:
1st Priority
Athens (culture, production, central)
Sparta (production, central)
Thermopylae (gateway city, future benefits)
secondary targets
Argos (too close to Chicago, good land, need it to consolidate)
Mycanae (too close to us, dagger like thrust endangers us in future)
Heraklia (completes isolation of Delphi)
Ephesus (northern gateway)
Anything north of Thermopylae (good land, but will be relatively new and weak)
tertiary targets
Pharsolos (gateway to Greek isles, good land, but far, across the mtns, not a major threat yet)
Delphi (hole in centre, but isolated, jungle ridden)
Gravy targets
The other cities on the other side of the mountain range and on the island
We will need several forces if we want this quick. We'll also need to go in with overwhelming force, much much more than what we have in the last two wars.
In order of attack, we should start our major Army A (14 knights, 4 pikes) with Thermopylae (should fall without too much trouble as we can hit it within one turn of declaring), then Athens (10-12k, 3p, within 3-4 turns), then Sparta (4-6k, 2p, within 5-8 turns). with this rolling attack, their borders will fall back and we can use their roads to push ahead. don't wait to heal unless absolutely necessary. If we can get to a mtn tile, we can push our knights ahead of the escorting pikes. leave the pikes to block a counter on the recently captured cities.
Simultaneously, use a second small Army B1 (4 knights, plus pike) to take Argos. (1-2 turns)
Small Army B2 to take Myceana. (1-2 turns)
Converge B1 and B2 on Delphi if sufficient survivors remain.
Small Army B3 to take Ephesus or other northern cities. (3-6 turns)
Total: 26 knights minimum, 10 pikes for primary and secondary targets. We can probably get Pharsolos or Heraklei or Delphi in a peace deal. Probably 2 cities at least. Estimated time to produce: 50-80 turns of concentrated effort from end of French war. Length of war: <10 turns. Losses due to haste (not healing) offset by gains in avoiding more rushed defenders.
Hopefully the French will buffer us, but Paris should be on guard. We may lose Rheims but that's acceptable. Perhaps 2-3 pikes should be stationed in every French city on that road, esp, if our iron is only in France. Other cities don't need to defend much. Army Group B1, B2, B3, can also be used to deflect any Greek attacks on former American lands or on Timeline City.
If we don't go for secondary targets, we can reduce B armies to 2 knights just to provide defense against a Greek attack.
The above analysis does not consider the effects of other civs getting involved.
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History Guy
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Reads too many books...
Oct 2001
time: 23:21
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It does not seem to me that the Greeks are now much of a threat. The Persians are indeed much more of a threat in my opinion, and I would say, sirs, not to get overexcited when it comes to war. If we have to have a war, sirs, would it not be best to strike at those who really serve as a threat right now, the Persians, who are close to having the iron they need for the Immortals to go into battle fully equipt? I say, sirs, that too much warmongering is unhealthy, and if there must be war, it must be with those who serve more of a threat, and indeed, we can't very well go after both the Persians and the Greeks before the former gets their iron, as then Apolytonia will be overrun, it will be in effect a dead nation, and I would rather lose everything I have here in the city of Apolyton than to see something as horrible as that occur.
If you want war, choose to attack those who really serve us as a threat. Anything to the contrary, now at any rate, is folly.
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ManicStarSeed
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of my banana plantation
Jun 2002
time: 21:21
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quote:
Originally posted by adaMada
Mss,
After we attack France, I really doubt they'll give us an ROP without a serious amount of money on the side, at least for a hundred turns or so, and we can almost forget about a military alliance with them... |
Yeah you are probably right. But do you think that is a poossible way can"win them over" in time for an attack on greece? (say in 30 turns?) If not, Would it make sense to overrun france all together to begin staging for greece? I know that it would depend on the early sucess of the campaign. The luck would have to hold up to make it work. I know we do not really want a prolonged war.
quote:
Originally posted by adaMada
I'm 'reactivating' this thread since I think it's an important issue, even if this specific thread is eight days old -- the information contained within still applies.
-- adaMada |
Thanks, I was beginning to feel likre a real thread-kill 
Now is the time to look towards this future, because once we hurt France, we will need time to recover, build build build (infrastructure) and then mass another army. If we plan it carefully, I bet you that we can have the RoP and alliace in less than 40 turns. I hope we will be so ahead of france, they will be happy to help us.
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Shiber
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Haifa, Israel
Jul 2002
time: 07:21
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quote:
Originally posted by History Guy
It does not seem to me that the Greeks are now much of a threat. The Persians are indeed much more of a threat in my opinion, and I would say, sirs, not to get overexcited when it comes to war. If we have to have a war, sirs, would it not be best to strike at those who really serve as a threat right now, the Persians, who are close to having the iron they need for the Immortals to go into battle fully equipt? I say, sirs, that too much warmongering is unhealthy, and if there must be war, it must be with those who serve more of a threat, and indeed, we can't very well go after both the Persians and the Greeks before the former gets their iron, as then Apolytonia will be overrun, it will be in effect a dead nation, and I would rather lose everything I have here in the city of Apolyton than to see something as horrible as that occur.
If you want war, choose to attack those who really serve us as a threat. Anything to the contrary, now at any rate, is folly. |
I absolutely agree. Here's what I think we should do (this is based on an idea I heard about a week ago, I don't remember who suggested it though):
Send a settler ASAP (if we don't have any spearmen available to send with him then send him unprotected, as this has to be done ASAP) and make him settle on the tile that contains the iron Persia is about to acquire (or if they will expand into that tile by the time we get there, the tile next to it).
Once we settle, give the town to the English. It won't be of any value to us since it's far away from our palace and is stuck between Persian and English territory but giving it to the English would mean preventing Persia from acquiring iron in the near and maybe far future. Heck, Persia and the English might even go to war over it.
Other than that, giving the town to England will improve our relations with this civ and we might be able to get some gold in return, but the main objectives of this move will be the ones mentioned above.
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Captain
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by Divine Right
May 2001
time: 00:21
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quote:
If you want war, choose to attack those who really serve us as a threat. Anything to the contrary, now at any rate, is folly. |
exactly.  I have said the same for a long time, but we do need to have a threat assessment for EACH civ and a PLAN for each civ. This is a good planning thread, but just because we have a plan, doesn't mean we have to carry it out. We should always have several plans.
The threat assessment I had hoped for was something that would factor in primarily [b]PROXIMITY, Current Relative Military STRENGTH, SIZE, Military Production Capability, Anticipated FUTURE STRENGTH, Attitude, Relative Cultural Strength, plus, of course, ALLIES and their threat assessment.
Example: The Greeks are close, near even, large, higher, potentially higher, polite/annoyed?, stronger?, none.
(I didn't check, that's just made up.)
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Captain
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by Divine Right
May 2001
time: 00:21
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if we road to thermopylae and our knights stack is big enough, then thermopylae to athens is only 2 turns.
take the city, the cultural radius is ours. so we can use the road without penalty, right?
If, during the same turn, we shift the remainder of our knights stack through the city, we can have them in place for an attack on athens by the second turn, right (ending two tiles from athens). Knights have 3d, I think, so they'll be as safe as if they were stacked with pikes so moving ahead isn't too dangerous, right?
If they have 3 defenders, that means we'll need at least 6 knights. We should go in with 10 to Athens. And take the city immediately.
Then we need not pillage anything, unless we want to cut the roads from Sparta and Corinth to delay a counterattack. But since we're taking the city, the shrunken cultural borders will be ours - meaning, without knights, they can't counter effectively.
The one problem is that they're now got Eretria and are building more Ivory Coast cities, that will make it more difficult to hit Thermopylae in one turn as their cultural borders will be blocking off the access route I'm thinking of.
If it gets any bigger, we won't be able to hit the capital for at least three turns then, giving them plenty of time to counter and buildup -meaning we'd need an even bigger force.
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adaMada
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"The Iron" Stadium, Ubergorsk, Apolytonia (C3DG)
Mar 2000
time: 00:21
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quote:
Originally posted by History Guy
It does not seem to me that the Greeks are now much of a threat. The Persians are indeed much more of a threat in my opinion, and I would say, sirs, not to get overexcited when it comes to war. If we have to have a war, sirs, would it not be best to strike at those who really serve as a threat right now, the Persians, who are close to having the iron they need for the Immortals to go into battle fully equipt? I say, sirs, that too much warmongering is unhealthy, and if there must be war, it must be with those who serve more of a threat, and indeed, we can't very well go after both the Persians and the Greeks before the former gets their iron, as then Apolytonia will be overrun, it will be in effect a dead nation, and I would rather lose everything I have here in the city of Apolyton than to see something as horrible as that occur.
If you want war, choose to attack those who really serve us as a threat. Anything to the contrary, now at any rate, is folly. |
I totally agree with this statement, and have always been in favor of 'dealing' with Persia quickly.
Having said that, it can't hurt to have some plans about the Greeks too, especially when taking a few of their cities could enlarge our empire so much. As for the Persians, there are other threads about what to do with them , and I'm strongly in favor of Shiber's plan (reasoning for that being in the threads on it ).
Basically, I agree that Persia's a bigger threat, but we've got threads about that and how to stop it -- let's still come up with a plan for the Greeks, and who knows? Maybe we'll have a chance to use it sometime...
-- adaMada
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Kickbooti
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Here is my modest assesment.
While the Persians may be a threat, our border with them is easy to defend. With roads connecting our cities, knights as a mobile reaction force, and plenty of jungle and mountains in the region, I believe that any persian threat can be containted. Or, if difficult, is worth containing since any conquest of Perisa would give create a long border with England far from our centers of production.
I think that thier expansive nature and geographic proximity makes Greece a bigger (if less agressive) threat. Coupled with the fact that after France is dealt with and America is eliminated, conquest of Greek cities will not put us in meaningful contact with any new threats.
With that assesment, my sugestion is as follows.
Greece is too big to take in one bite. I think a quick, savage, crippling blow sterngthening our position and weakining their future development is best.
We should make Sparta and Argos our primary targets. This would a) deprive Greece of horses, depriving them of knights/calvary in the future. It would also cut off their expansion into the basin. We may be able to gain Delphi and/or Mycenae through peace treaty, or, after defending Sparta our army could turn eastward and take them.
Eritrea could be a secondary target, cutting the Ivory coast off from the capital (although a new city on the coast would likely be necessary).
After a Greek war, I would then recomend a time of internal development and consolidation. I think developing our southern border would be necessary to protect against incursions from the sub-continent. A government change for tech advances and cultural development would be advisable as well.
But the Greek colonies in the Great Basin would be welcomed additions to our empire. Persia can follow when cavalry makes distance less of an issue.
Respectfully,
Kickbooti
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wervdon
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Oh and how much of an effect is their great wall going to have? None if they dont have any city walls built, but if they do, wouldn't that make the hoplites 6 defense?
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12-08-2002 04:15
, we could wait until we have some 20 or so cav units , ....if they dont have cav , ......then we get them on a silver plate , ....
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