12-08-2002 10:01									#1
	War Academy: SMC Generalized Plan: The Persians Support Apolyton

Persia may not be number one, but they're another civ we should be wary of.

As you can tell, they have no problem waltzing all over our territory, they have no reguard for our borders.

The Persians have very little culture of their own, and with any luck Tyre and Sidon will flip to us in the near future.

The persians do not have iron right now but they will realitevly soon. Their immortals are 4-2-1. A unit even a pikeman cant defend against with certainty.

One good thing about Persia is that most of the cities we would want are located on the southern pennisula (Presopolis, Bactra, Susa, Tarsus, Gordium). This could be a simple "divide and conquer" maneuver.

In fact, if we get ahead after destorying America and France, we may be able to crush ther Persians without even suing for peace.

Once the penninsula is taken, they're basically nothing.

	12-08-2002 10:02									#2
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i hit enter and the damn thing posted. oh well.

heres the map.

discuss.

Attachment: persia.gif
This has been downloaded 180 time(s).

	12-08-2002 16:18									#3
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I have to admit I can't stop drooling over that Peninsula, but we might want to wait until we have cavalry so we can roam into deep Persian territory as quick as possible without fearing that our force would be counter-attacked during its voyage.

	12-08-2002 17:01									#4
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If we wanted to be sneaky we could build a city next to thier iron as it is outside thier cultural borders. Without thier immortals they would only ever be a second rate nation.

But if we wanted to be really really sneaky we could build a city next to their iron and then give the city to the english so that the Persians couldn't culture flip the city and would be facing a tough war if they tried to take it by force.

If we could deny the Persians iron it would mean no immortals, knights or pikeman. Or inother words a complete walk over.

	12-08-2002 17:13									#5
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Getting that iron would require a settler/spearmen group be sent out NOW, as Antioch could expand any time now. Immortals have a defense of 2, so they're not really anything to worry about unless they start attacking too much. If we can cripple their military production soon enough (that is, make Antioch a primary target should they get the iron there), they won't be able to produce more Immortals and really won't have any advantage. The key is to overwhelm them right at the beginning so they won't have the ability to launch an effective counterattack. AFAIK, that one iron deposit is all they have, correct (I'm too tired to load up the .SAV right now and check)? Basically, if we ever hope to do anything to the Persians in the future, we need to get that iron now. No iron means no Middle Age military, at all. We could do this with Knights.

	12-08-2002 17:14									#6
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I like your way of thinking! However I'm pretty certain the English are going to settle that spot before we do.
Nevertheless we should try settling it so we can give it to the English. Doing so would create us a much needed ally in the future.

	12-08-2002 18:14									#7
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I like OPD's idea. Don't we already have a settler in the field with a spearman.

	12-08-2002 18:57									#8
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I like the OPD idea, but I never give any city to another civ... and I think we can't waste any settler by now.
By the other hand, could be funny to be sooo evil...

	12-08-2002 21:02									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Edrix Getting that iron would require a settler/spearmen group be sent out NOW, as Antioch could expand any time now.

yeah you're right i thought we had a spare settler but we built the city of memphis last time.
It'll probably have expanded by the time we build a settler and get over there.

	12-08-2002 21:06									#10
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at the very least, station fast moving troops near the Persian iron deposit, close enough that if war breaks out, we can cut the supply immediately, use the fast movers to pillage the rest of the roads around that city, so that it will be a dozen turns before they can reconnect, even if they kill our fastmovers.

or if we have pikes by then, pillage and sit on the source and hope their existing armies are not powerful enough to dislodge us quickly.

we use the time bought to rally our troops, hurrying whatever we must, and either reinforce the troops blocking their iron access, or to start taking cities, further cutting their production and cultural border. As long as they're without iron, we can win a war of attrition (even if they outproduce us, they'll only have archers!). Of course, we'd love to hit hard and fast enough that they'll beg for peace, but if they get aggressive soon, I don't think we'll have time to build an army big enough to meet the ideal.

	12-08-2002 22:36									#11
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I like the english idea -- give them the city, and in return, get them to declare war on the Aztecs with us (we're too far away from the Aztecs to actually have to fight). Cripple England, Persia, and the Aztecs all in one -- I think it's worth a settler.

On the other hand, we could just build and give England the city and get something else we want in return, such as whatever tech they have.

Just a thought.

-- adaMada

	13-08-2002 05:56									#12
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quote: Originally posted by adaMada I like the english idea -- give them the city, and in return, get them to declare war on the Aztecs with us (we're too far away from the Aztecs to actually have to fight). Cripple England, Persia, and the Aztecs all in one -- I think it's worth a settler. On the other hand, we could just build and give England the city and get something else we want in return, such as whatever tech they have. Just a thought. -- adaMada

I don't think the comp has been willing to give you anything for cities (and vice versa) since several patches ago. It only accepts them as gifts, and will only give them away for a peace treaty.

	13-08-2002 07:50									#13
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I think Persia would be better suited to be an ally/ subject nation than areas to take over. We can use them long term against the english, who are #2 in the world, and the Germans, who's territory is much closer and thus much more useful to our empire. We have to stop worrying solely about our neighbors and start looking at the overall situation, and the Greeks, English and Romans are shaping up to be our biggest long term competitors- to say nothing of the Chinese and Japanese- we have no clue how big they are , almost half the map is unknown, and we don't know what the four missing civs might be up to.

	13-08-2002 11:54									#14
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-- OT --

That reminds me - if we could be the first civ to make contact with those civs, we'd be RICH!!
The civs living in the other continent(s) are probably technologically backward in comparison to us because all of the Abananaba civs have been trading techs AFAIK. Why, we could sell them tons of technologies for gold and gpt! We could also sell communications but I'd rather be the only civ with communications with civs from overseas.
We should therefore make it a high priority to research means of safely traversing ocean tiles.

	17-08-2002 01:08									#15
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Shiber,
Another good idea . Again, might I suggest giving it it's own thread, so it can recieve the proper attention?

-- adaMada

	17-08-2002 01:42									#16
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Well, fine sirs, I myself must admit that the Persian threat is, in it's own way, quite staggering. Xerxes of Persia is known to be a hard man, and I believe his moral character to be quite low. He is not trustworthy in my opinion, so do not let the overly pleasant smile on his face full you. Something must be done in order to eliminate any chance of betrayal on the part of the Persian empire. Now, I am not a warmonger, so I see war as a last resort in this case. Yet, if he is allowed to build his fearsome Immortals in mass, we shall not be able to stand against him. Something must be done, and it must be done now. We must try and seek a way to deny him of his iron access, and so make sure that he can have no chance of arming his legions of Immortals. If he is able to have these Immortals in his army, Apolytonia will be on the way out. However, as I said before, war should be viewed only as a last resort, though I cannot stress to you how high the threat of Persia is.

	17-08-2002 02:01									#17
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WE should keep a couple units roaming the border watching for immortals, especially buildups of immortals

	17-08-2002 03:02									#18
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Quoting from another thread:

Here's what I think we should do (this is based on an idea I heard about a week ago, I don't remember who suggested it though):
Send a settler ASAP (if we don't have any spearmen available to send with him then send him unprotected, as this has to be done ASAP) and make him settle on the tile that contains the iron Persia is about to acquire (or if they will expand into that tile by the time we get there, the tile next to it).
Once we settle, give the town to the English. It won't be of any value to us since it's far away from our palace and is stuck between Persian and English territory but giving it to the English would mean preventing Persia from acquiring iron in the near and maybe far future. Heck, Persia and the English might even go to war over it.
Other than that, giving the town to England will improve our relations with this civ and we might be able to get some gold in return, but the main objectives of this move will be the ones mentioned above.

	17-08-2002 20:25									#19
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Shiber is exactly right. This is what we should do, and once again, I support and endorse this plan. I know I don't hold much influence, but if someone like Uberkrux or Sir Ralph or Captain would care to endorse the plan, I think it'd serve as a great service to our civilization.

	17-08-2002 20:28									#20
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hi ,

we should prepare to get them , while they are at war with an other nation , ....

and cav might not be bad , ....

30 vet units could do the trick

have a nice day

	17-08-2002 20:32									#21
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on Shiber's plan:

in my expierences civs never pay gold or techs for a city (they're too stupid to comprehend the value of a city. go soren)

sure, we could just "give" the English Iron, but why? They're bound to be enemies at soem point, why would we give them swordsmen / pikemen / kinghts / railroads?

	17-08-2002 21:10									#22
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Brits already have Iron connected (next to Canterbury to be precise).
Giving them Iron won't change anything stratgically, except hindering Persia to go past spearman until at least gunpowder (and Persia's chance to get saltpeter is little, with their grassland / jungle territory).

It seems giving Iron to England will be a loss of a settler : we don't want England to be overpowered. If Persia only has spearmen when cavalry is around, then it will be a breeze for Liz to conquer it.
Plus, we have no guarantee at all Antioch won't expand until we arrive, or that the Brits won't settle there beforehand.
Antioch would cost 19 gold to investigate (our income of 1 turn). I think it'll be appropriate to see if Persians are building culture there, before sending a settler in such a hazardous mission.

	17-08-2002 22:51									#23
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quote: Originally posted by UberKruX on Shiber's plan: in my expierences civs never pay gold or techs for a city (they're too stupid to comprehend the value of a city. go soren) sure, we could just "give" the English Iron, but why? They're bound to be enemies at soem point, why would we give them swordsmen / pikemen / kinghts / railroads?

The A.I will never, ever, ever accept one of your cities. No matter what the city has in it, or anythig else you may put in the deal. Its because of too many possible exploits.

	17-08-2002 23:11									#24
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That is the new patch, v1.29, where AI never accepts cities except freely. We are still in v1.21.

	17-08-2002 23:15									#25
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quote: Originally posted by trickey The A.I will never, ever, ever accept one of your cities. No matter what the city has in it, or anythig else you may put in the deal. Its because of too many possible exploits.

The AI always accepts gifts, including cities. You can give cities to the AI, but you can never trade for them, except in peace negociations.

	18-08-2002 20:53									#26
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hi ,

we could give the english species some iron , why not , before we go to war , we dont give it to them , ....and they cant build large numbers in 20 turns , and we can use the money , .....

have a nice day

	18-08-2002 21:11									#27
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Panag, we'll need a road or a sea route to England first.

	18-08-2002 21:39									#28
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt That is the new patch, v1.29, where AI never accepts cities except freely. We are still in v1.21.

hi ,

the AI accepts them in 1.29

its a great way to please them , and to start wars

have a nice day