12-08-2002 10:58									#1
	Completely lame barbarian hoarde rush - stupid AI Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I just had a barbarian rush (my first). I looked up one peaceful day and found six barbarian camps all brimming with horseman. (BTW, this happened in 1200 - not the era change that some have claimed rushes ocurr in).

To deal with the issue I surrounded each of the six camps with infantry and cavalry. Basically anything I had available. When it's the barb turn the barbs attack me in a completely stupid fashion. I had a mix of defensive situations. Of the 48 units completely surrounding the six barb camps there were situations where I had infantry on open plains (at the weak-defense extreme), and in other cases fortified infantry on mountain tops! (the strong-defense extreme)

How do the barbs attack? Every single barb unit from all of the six camps attacked to the Northeast no matter how strong any of the other defenses were. In other words the AI would attack an infantry on a fort on a mountain while another infantry sat unforted out in the plains.

This MUST be an AI bug! Either that or the programmer was mad at his/her Northeast neighbor.

PS: I have the .SAV if anyone wants.

	12-08-2002 13:39									#2
	Re: Completely lame barbarian hoarde rush - stupid AI Suffering from ads?

You had Infantry in 1200 AD??

OK, the AI is stupid. Not news, although an interesting new example of it in action!

	12-08-2002 13:49									#3
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I don't think that is the same as a barbarian rush, which is normally typified by a single big stack of units appearing out of the fog of war. That they charge the first thing they see seems pretty appropriate for barbarians. The serious threat should be from the other (AI) players.

	12-08-2002 17:13									#4
	Re: Completely lame barbarian hoarde rush - stupid AI Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by RedBird Every single barb unit from all of the six camps attacked to the Northeast no matter how strong any of the other defenses were. In other words the AI would attack an infantry on a fort on a mountain while another infantry sat unforted out in the plains. This MUST be an AI bug! Either that or the programmer was mad at his/her Northeast neighbor.

Is the Northeast the straightest route to anything relevant? (I mean, a weak city, a strategic resource, your capital...)

Could be that the pathfinder algorithm get priority over the tactical consideration: not necessary a bug, simply a case in point of a wrong balancing.

Also consider this: if AI had win against infantry in open plain it must had suffered your counterattack in open plain too. If it computed a half reasonable chance to win against your fortified defender, then it will have gained the strongest position against your counterattack (and surrounding it you surely menace it enough to switch the AI on "defense mode", so to speak).

A large stack of barbarian in a fortified mountain could be quite a nuisance if you haven't cannon at hand to soften them some hit point...

	12-08-2002 18:31									#5
	Re: Completely lame barbarian hoarde rush - stupid AI Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by RedBird (BTW, this happened in 1200 - not the era change that some have claimed rushes ocurr in).

That's something different. The camps create new units from time to time, and if they're left alone for awhile, the Horseman barbs will tend to stack together, the same way they do when there's an uprising.

	13-08-2002 11:34									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Grumbold I don't think that is the same as a barbarian rush, which is normally typified by a single big stack of units appearing out of the fog of war.

It would have been a rush. Six camps with something like 20 horseman each.

	13-08-2002 11:38									#7
	Re: Re: Completely lame barbarian hoarde rush - stupid AI Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Adm.Naismith Is the Northeast the straightest route to anything relevant?

There were six camps. For some yes, for others no. One camp was only two squares from wide open ocean to the Northeast, but it still attacked in that direction (this was, in fact, far north of my territory, absolutely nothing in the direction of attack).

quote: Also consider this: if AI had win against infantry in open plain it must had suffered your counterattack in open plain too. If it computed a half reasonable chance to win against your fortified defender, then it will have gained the strongest position

There were other situations where more defensive territory was available in other directions. There were six camps. There was just about every conceivable mix of defensive positions. Yet all six camps, and all units from all camps, attacked NE.

	13-08-2002 12:02									#8
	Re: Re: Completely lame barbarian hoarde rush - stupid AI Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Willem The camps create new units from time to time, and if they're left alone for awhile, the Horseman barbs will tend to stack together, the same way they do when there's an uprising.

Nope, this came as one big rush, and I just learned how it happened. Very surprising. I was saving copiously since I was running errands when I was playing this turn. Save random seed is off, but if you try the save you should see what I mean.

I was a little wrong about the era change. *I* was already in the middle of this era, but the Persians weren't. I sold them Theory of Gravity, and that must have kicked them over because presto barb camps pop up all over (in mid-turn no less). Each is stacked with two warriors and 24 horseman!!!

I just reloaded that save, and retried it about three times. Each time I contact Xerxes, and sell him Theory of Gravity, and each time I look in the wilds to the Northeast and Southeast of my territory (I'm America), and there are new barb camps all other the place.

Pretty interesting.

I'll attach the .SAV.

	13-08-2002 12:04									#9
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Here's the end of that turn. I've surrounded all the barb camps. Start the next turn, and you'll see all the barbs attack to the Northeast.

Attachment: 1190-end.sav
This has been downloaded 1 time(s).

	13-08-2002 14:31									#10
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I suspect we don't see this often because there usually isn't any meaningful wilderness left by 1AD so all you get is a wave of horsemen, not actual encampments.

	13-08-2002 14:47									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Grumbold I suspect we don't see this often because there usually isn't any meaningful wilderness left by 1AD so all you get is a wave of horsemen, not actual encampments.

Based on this last experience (see .SAV file above) I think all horsemen come from encampments. I suspect you're just not seeing the encampments (i.e. not going out looking for them). All you need is about five squares (radius) of wilderness to get barb encampments.

Never once have I found a barbarian that didn't have a camp somewhere behind it. And I don't think ships ever land barbs either.

	13-08-2002 14:58									#12
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I have had barbarian waves after there's no more space for barb encampments in my neck of the woods. They occasionally catch me by surprise simply because they do appear out of nowhere. Had there been room for an encampment I would have had a cavalryman or two roaming around cashing in the 25 gold bonuses every few turns.

On a slightly different tack, I find it hilarious when conducting a modern war barbarian encampments suddenly start reappearing because there is a brief gap between the foreign cities being razed and any settlers showing up to reoccupy the land. The poor old warriors really aren't much threat to modern armor

	13-08-2002 15:09									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Grumbold On a slightly different tack, I find it hilarious when conducting a modern war barbarian encampments suddenly start reappearing because there is a brief gap between the foreign cities being razed and any settlers showing up to reoccupy the land. The poor old warriors really aren't much threat to modern armor

Couldn't agree more. That was one thing I liked better in Civ2. At least there they called the later era barabians a "Revolt" or something like that. I can see discovering barbarians late in the game, but I can't see them popping up in previously used land.

Those warriors are, however, good for something... getting your elite status on your MA's.

	13-08-2002 19:19									#14
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quote: Originally posted by RedBird Based on this last experience (see .SAV file above) I think all horsemen come from encampments. I suspect you're just not seeing the encampments (i.e. not going out looking for them). All you need is about five squares (radius) of wilderness to get barb encampments. Never once have I found a barbarian that didn't have a camp somewhere behind it. And I don't think ships ever land barbs either.

Yes they do. I've seen uprisings that didn't have any encampment nearby, but I had noticed a ship in the area. So all I could figure out was that they came from the sea, off a Galley. And I have actually seen a galley or two unload barbs at other times as well, not just with an uprising.

	13-08-2002 20:28									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Willem ... And I have actually seen a galley or two unload barbs at other times as well, not just with an uprising.

WOW!! For Civ3 that is a MAJOR event! One I have never seen.

	13-08-2002 21:08									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Jaybe WOW!! For Civ3 that is a MAJOR event! One I have never seen.

Usually what I see happening is an encampment appear near where a Galley pulls up to a shore. So I guess technically the horde didn't actually come from the ship itself.