12-08-2002 22:33									#1
	New Gameplay Mechanics in 1.29f Full PM-box? Change here!

Just finished my latest game under the new 1.29f patch, and noticed 2 new (unannounced) tweaks in the in-game mechanics. [If I am misremembering the old version, please let me know].

1. Making peace while in an MPP now terminates the MPP. I'm not sure I even tested this under 1.21, but I seem to recall (pretty clearly) that once an MPP was signed, it would run for 20 turns - the only way to end it early was to go to war with your MPP partner. I remember this because of the frustrating frequency of making peace with a civ (breaking my MPP treaty) but being thrown right back into war on the next turn as my former enemy attacked my (still) MPP partner. Thus 2 "treaty incidents" - (i) breaking an MPP, and (ii) breaking a peace treaty. In my latest game, my MPP ally made peace and our MPP went away only 8 -10 turns into the MPP.

2. You can now demand strategic or luxury resources in peace negotiations. One frustrating aspect of 1.21f was the inability to demand a luxury trade deal as a condition to peace (even when the enemy was willing to give away cities / techs / gold etc.) In my latest game, in negotiations with an enemy, once "peace treaty" was on the table, so were all the other possible trades (including luxuries) -- they were not greyed out as they had been under 1.21f.

Confirmations or contradictions?

Catt

	12-08-2002 23:15									#2
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#2. I could have sworn I tried this over the weekend, and resources were still greyed out... you sure??

	12-08-2002 23:20									#3
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I took a screenshot of it (I was surprised), so I should have a game date in the screenshot, which means an approximate date for a saved game (probably have something close). I will reload and try it again, and will post the game if others don't come forward with confirmations.

BTW, the resources may still be greyed out if you don't have a viable trade route with the enemy civ.

Catt

	12-08-2002 23:41									#4
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Catt,

As far as I can tell, everything has always been available on the Treaty table regardless of patch.

Could the grey-out resources have been due to a lack of roads/harbors/airports to their capital?

The lack of a trade route is the only thing that I can ever remember to grey-out certain items in the trade window.

I don't think the availability to trade resources, strategic/luxury is affected by anything but access.

	12-08-2002 23:55									#5
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Prior to 1.29f (maybe still under 1.29f, and I just got a buggy game) you couldn't trade with a civ while at war. A consequence of this restriction was that you couldn't trade resources with a civ unless a peace treaty was in effect - so you couldn't offer a peace treaty to evil Hammurabi at the cost of a nice 20-turn supply of silks. You had two choices: (1) make peace, and then go back for the silks without ever leaving the diplo screen; or (2) keep fighting until you take the silks. Option 1 sucked, because once the dogs of war are leashed again, Hammy has no incentive to ofer up his silks.

Catt

	13-08-2002 00:04									#6
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It took me quite some time to discover how to have trades allowed when ending a war. (1) Do NOT use the "our troops approach" or "we have overextended" options, as these disallow the desired negotiation values; instead, USE the "I have a proposal." (2) Click on Peace Treaty (the only thing available), and this makes other negotiation issues available.

	13-08-2002 00:04									#7
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It would be nice if you're right about the luxuries/resources being available in peace treaty negotiations. I've gotten used to targetting them, so I can't confirm or deny your report. I'll keep an eye out, though.

Haven't had an MPP for a long time, but if it's true, it's a good thing.

-Arrian

	13-08-2002 00:07									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Jaybe It took me quite some time to discover how to have trades allowed when ending a war. (1) Do NOT use the "our troops approach" or "we have overextended" options, as these disallow the desired negotiation values; instead, USE the "I have a proposal." (2) Click on Peace Treaty (the only thing available), and this makes other negotiation issues available.

This is how I usually end wars, unless the other person sneak attacked me.

And pre-1.29, I was able to get the resource offers. The flip side to this is that in 20 turns, you will have to renegotiate peace.

	13-08-2002 00:55									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Jaybe It took me quite some time to discover how to have trades allowed when ending a war. (1) Do NOT use the "our troops approach" or "we have overextended" options, as these disallow the desired negotiation values; instead, USE the "I have a proposal." (2) Click on Peace Treaty (the only thing available), and this makes other negotiation issues available.

quote: Originally posted by kring This is how I usually end wars, unless the other person sneak attacked me. And pre-1.29, I was able to get the resource offers. The flip side to this is that in 20 turns, you will have to renegotiate peace.

Now I'm really confused. I almost always (say 99% of the time) use the "We would like to propose a deal" option rather than the agressive / contrite openings. And I have never been able to secure luxury or strategic resources as part of a peace treaty, at least not before my current game. I have even added my comment to threads complaining to Firaxis that this "bug" needed to be fixed.

Are you guys sure you could always get resources thrown in on a peace treaty? Is there another explanation (I use a Windows PC, do you guys use a Mac)?

Anyone else got any thoughts? I honestly thought it was well settled that you couldn't extort resources for peace - techs, gold, maps, cities, workers, diplomatic agreements (RoP, Communications, etc.) yes; resources, no.

Catt

	13-08-2002 02:00									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Catt Are you guys sure you could always get resources thrown in on a peace treaty? Is there another explanation (I use a Windows PC, do you guys use a Mac)? Anyone else got any thoughts? I honestly thought it was well settled that you couldn't extort resources for peace - techs, gold, maps, cities, workers, diplomatic agreements (RoP, Communications, etc.) yes; resources, no.

Sorry Catt, I do NOT personally know for sure about the resources bit. (I am using both Windoze and Mac).

	13-08-2002 02:17									#11
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Catt,

I too, am using Windows. I've always been able to negotiate resources (if available) during Peace treaty.

Once they will acknowledge your envoy, the first and only thing you can negotiate is Peace. Once 'Peace' is on the table, all the other things open up.

But, as has already been mentioned above, if you get anything in addition to Peace; 20 turns later they will renegotiate for Peace.

I've been able to do this since before 1.21f through 1.29f.

Are you sure that they have roads to their capital? If you cut-off their capital, the resources can't be traded until someone builds a road back to it.

Do they have the resources available?

	13-08-2002 02:40									#12
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quote: Originally posted by steven8r Catt, I too, am using Windows. I've always been able to negotiate resources (if available) during Peace treaty. Once they will acknowledge your envoy, the first and only thing you can negotiate is Peace. Once 'Peace' is on the table, all the other things open up. But, as has already been mentioned above, if you get anything in addition to Peace; 20 turns later they will renegotiate for Peace. I've been able to do this since before 1.21f through 1.29f. Are you sure that they have roads to their capital? If you cut-off their capital, the resources can't be traded until someone builds a road back to it. Do they have the resources available?

Man - this is getting weirder all the time - it's almost like we're playing in parallel worlds with slightly different games.

Steven8r, I defintiely follow everything you're saying and agree with everything - except that in my games I could never get resources to show in the list as an available item.

A typical process worked like this: They acknowledge envoy; I say I have a deal to propose; the only deal option is Peace Treaty; once Peace Treaty is on the table the whole deal options list appears; I can mix and match different "demands" for peace (i.e., I offer Peace Treaty and I demand Peace Treaty, Communications w/French, 100 gold, 2 gpt, that worker in your capitol, and your World Map"); my goal is obviously to see what I can get for a 20-turn peace, and thereby make a decision to offer peace or tell the enemy to "Forget It."

But here is the problem - the resources (strategic and luxury) were always greyed out - the enemy might have 3 excess silks (I can see the greyed out silks), but I can't put them on the table, nor can I offer my resources as part of the negotiations.

Once a Peace Treaty is agreed to ("Well, the offer is light, but we'll take it"), I can again click on the "We would like to propose a deal" link and lo and behold, the enemy now has 3 excess silks which are available for trade - i.e., a valid trade route exists! And all this without ever having left the negotiating table! My conclusion (and others' explanation for the same thing) was always that the resources weren't greyed out due to lack of a trade route, but because of the then-current state of war. In this sense the trade screen worked just like trading with a civ under a trade embargo - cash purchases, tech trading and trading maps, etc was fine, but trading resources was impossible (and they were greyed out). I didn't agree with how it worked, but that's how the game worked for me.

There have been something like 90+ views of this thread - please chime in! Anyone got an explanation for why the different experiences? Am I smoking crack or something?

Catt

	13-08-2002 02:58									#13
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Well, I have NEVER been able to negotiate resourses of any kind during peace negotiations.
They are always greyed out.

-S

	13-08-2002 03:01									#14
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@ Catt:

I guess at least we're from the same universe, 'cause
that's whats happening here too

"Be damned, you foreign alien imposters "

	13-08-2002 03:11									#15
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I couldn't get luxuries as part of any peace treaty in my latest 1.29f game either. Never has been the case.

I think all that pot finally got to Hippie Sam.

	13-08-2002 03:11									#16
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There is btw one more thing I noticed that has been improved in 1.29.

Prior to 1.29 some civilizations never used their secondary color.
So if I played with the Indians, for instance (and I almost always do), then the Iroques newer showed up in the game.

Since I almost always are playing the Indians, I have actually newer met Hiawatha until now when playing version 1.29 - almost a year after buying the game!!

Well, he seems like a nice guy, though, always smiling and stuff...

-S

	13-08-2002 03:28									#17
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I'm on 1.29f and Windows 98.

This is from AU 103. I, Tina, Tourist of England, have offered to negotiate a deal with that nasty, swarthy Italian man, Caesar.

First his side of the table:

Attachment: rome.gif
This has been downloaded 493 time(s).

	13-08-2002 03:31									#18
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And now mine:

Attachment: england.gif
This has been downloaded 489 time(s).

	13-08-2002 04:01									#19
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Theseus - you beat me to it! and after I broke my own rule to fire up the game at work to take some screenshots!

Alexman - Hippie Sam had long since passed out amid a pile of discarded candy wrappers, a half-eaten burrito, a knocked-over bong, and 4 empty beer bottles. Tourist Tina was flying solo at that point and was (regrettably) sober.

To repeat myself from an earlier post - things are getting weirder and weirder here. Half the posters argue that resources with a peace treaty always worked; the other half argue that resources with a treaty don't even work under 1.29f (or at least they've never seen it).

Below is a series of 6 screenshots, tracking the negotiating process with the evil Hammurabi (I reloaded the game for these shots - it is not how I actually played that turn).

*************************

Warning - AU 103 Spoiler Below

*************************

Number 1 of 6: Diplomatic Contact

Attachment: diplo contact.jpg
This has been downloaded 469 time(s).

	13-08-2002 04:03									#20
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Number 2 of 6: Peace Treaty is the Only Option

Attachment: peace treaty only.jpg
This has been downloaded 466 time(s).

	13-08-2002 04:05									#21
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Number 3 of 6: With Peace, All is Possible

Attachment: full deal options.jpg
This has been downloaded 446 time(s).

	13-08-2002 04:06									#22
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Number 4 of 6: Peace Proposal with Resources

Attachment: peace with resources.jpg
This has been downloaded 439 time(s).

	13-08-2002 04:07									#23
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Number 5 of 6: Peace in Our Time

Attachment: peace in our time.jpg
This has been downloaded 430 time(s).

	13-08-2002 04:08									#24
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Number 6 of 6: A Look at the Active Deals

Attachment: active deals.jpg
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	13-08-2002 04:12									#25
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WTF??!!! You offered him Rubber!!

(just kidding)

WTF??!!! What could possibly be going on here?

Catt, you used the 'normal' version of the BIC, right? Could that be it?

(sidenote: How do you save your screenshots?)

	13-08-2002 04:22									#26
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Yup - I used the standard game - only modification I know of / noticed is renaming Elizabeth as Tourist Tina and making the "We Love the Tourist" day change (and presumably the map edits alexman made).

I will PM you with the screenshot info.

Catt

	13-08-2002 05:47									#27
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Man O Man I wish I could do that. I have never been able to negotiate resources either - I shall keep a look out because being able to put resources on the table during peace negotiations would have to be the best thing since sliced bread!

	13-08-2002 05:55									#28
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Ok then, I've no idea.

If you dbl-clk on the greyed-out resource, your Foreign Advisor should be able to tell you why you cannot trade. Other than that, I'm stumped.

I do specifically remember in a 1.21f game, the Americans just up and declared war on me (Germans). Must've been to cancel some gpt deals 'cause they were behind in techs and I gave them a good wholoping. Pretty soon, Abe sued for peace. He offered Peace + silks (or something similar) and gpt. I was worried that he would declare war again to get out of it, but after the 20 turns, he renegotiated the Peace Treaty--I had to get the Silks on a separate deal.

I remember (at least I think I remember) always being able to put resources on the table during Peace Negotiations. At least I don't ever remember not being able to.

:Theme from Twighlight Zone:

	13-08-2002 10:26									#29
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ive never seen available resourses during peace talks, there always grey. maybe they always had embargos against me but ive played well over 100 games and have never seen it happen in my games

	13-08-2002 13:08									#30
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

what about trade embargoes? The other civs may have signed trade embargoes against you whilst at war.