 |
| |
|
|
Ned
|
 |
of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:21
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Spartak
Fez and Ned - Cool It willya. Use some logic - despite Sept 11 the USA is not universally popular and is picking up a reputation as an international bullyboy. Now why might that be? Well perhaps because the US is turning into an international bullyboy. Is this good for the world? No. Is this good for the US? Hmm in the shorterm probably but in the longer term? No.
Explain to me how supporting ther Israelis against the Palestinians is helping the cause of middle-east peace? Or perhaps how removing Saddam (settling old scores is a more accurate description of this) is going to help the US in the longer term? Toppling Saddam will undoubtedly lead to greater instability in the middle-east and I'm not sure that places like Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain, Iraq & Syria need a popular upsurge of Islamic brotherly feeling right now. In case you hadn't noticed, the middle-east going up in flames would totally wreck the supply of oil to the west and when that happens - bye-bye world economy.
Now I realise that a lot of Americans struggle to see a longer view but surely anyone who attempts any meaningful analysis of the situation in the middle-east right now must see that what isn't needed right now is greater instability or anything that might lead to uprisings and an uopswell fo islamism in unstable countries which currently have (nominally) pro-western governments.
This doesn't mean that saddam is good but try and see things from a wider perspective that just 'ol "USA USA"! Bush's attempts to remove Saddam is not only potentially ruinous to us all, but is squandering all that pro-US feeling that the atrocities of Sept 11 caused.
Two wrongs do not make it right..... |
Spartak, For years we propped up corrupt dictatorships, hated by their people, in the name of stability. We ignored fundamental justice issues and the rights of people to self-determination. All this brought us is hatred of the people of the countries involved.
I say no more of that cr#p. We, the United States, have to stand for democracy, for human rights and for liberty. We owe it to ourselves and to the world to rid the world of monsters like Saddam, particularly if they have a track record of crimes against humanity and aggressive war. Saddam was once our puppet. Now, like Noriega, he is our enemy and the people of Iraq suffer.
To hear the Kurd and Shi'ite leaders speak of hope of salvation with the help of America is to know that our cause is just.
The instability you speak of is the liberation of the Kurds and Shi'ites from oppression. This may signal the oppressed Kurds in Syria, Turkey, Iran and the oppressed Shi'ites in Saudi Arabia to rise up against corrupt dictatorships and themselves seek freedom. I say - go for it.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Lord Merciless
|
|
The Euros said the same thing about Reagon back then...
They love JFK, Carter, and Clinton.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
JCG
|
 |
between a rock and a hard place
Feb 2002
time: 00:21
|
|
You want the real bloody answer?
Kill Bin Laden, Kill this Iranian guy, kill Saddam, kill GWB, kill Musharaf, kill this Bielorussian guy, kill this korean Kim Il guy, kill a bunch of African guys, kill this Saudi Arabian guy, kill Arafat, kill Sharon and err...kill Al Gore. 
World peace achieved through death, I suppose.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Deity Dude
|
|
Westland, Michigan
Aug 2000
time: 00:21
|
|
Hmmmm
28 Bush
21 Saddam
Now I understand the wisdom of the American forefathers when they made the country a Republic instead of a Democracy.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Joe R. Golowka
|
 |
Earth, Sol System, Milky Way
Jul 2001
time: 23:21
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ned
All this brought us is hatred of the people of the countries involved. |
It brought us Oil and funded the military industrial complex.
quote:
I say no more of that cr#p. We, the United States, have to stand for democracy, for human rights and for liberty. We owe it to ourselves and to the world to rid the world of monsters like Saddam, particularly if they have a track record of crimes against humanity and aggressive war. Saddam was once our puppet. |
This has nothing to do with Democracy, Ned. If Bush gave a rat's ass about democracy he wouldn't be backing the Saudi Monarchy, Turkmenistan, Mushariff, the Kuwaiti Monarchy, or a bunch of other repressive regimes. This is about oil (and to a lesser extent feeding the military industrial complex). Like you said, Sadaam used to be our puppet then he disobeyed orders & invaded Kuwait (also a puppet). Now Washington is getting tired of the standoff and wants to put a puppet back in charge of Iraq. Bush will call the new regime a democracy but it'll actually be another puppet state. Promoting democracy is a fine idea; the most effective thing we can do to promote it is to stop supporting dictatorships.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Kepler
|
 |
Lovely Oregon
Jul 2002
time: 21:21
|
|
> The US government doesn't care about things like "democracy" or human rights; that's just propaganda for the masses. The actual goals of foreign policy are to keep the US on top and enrich US businesses.
I know this a quaint notion, but the US government is, albeit strained through several unethical layers, its people. Certainly, there are strong elements within our government that care primarily about increasing American wealth, but I think most of us feel that we're wealthy enough as it is relative to the rest of the world. We actually care a lot more about human rights and democratic values than you might think.
What cheeses us off enough to take our eyes off sitcoms for more than five minutes is when people fly explosives into the shiny metal and glass boxes where we work. And even then, a lot of us are debating limiting the actions we feel comfortable taking, and a lot of us are looking closely at the sort of regimes we call our "friends."
So while the dominant world power is always going to be an inviting pin cushion, note that when you say "US government" -- even in the current instance of an executive without even a plurality, let alone a majority, of voters behind him -- you are ultimately talking about people -- me and the rest of the US electorate. And we're a lot nicer than you think. Really.
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
spartak
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ned
Spartak, For years we propped up corrupt dictatorships, hated by their people, in the name of stability. We ignored fundamental justice issues and the rights of people to self-determination. All this brought us is hatred of the people of the countries involved.
I say no more of that cr#p. We, the United States, have to stand for democracy, for human rights and for liberty. We owe it to ourselves and to the world to rid the world of monsters like Saddam, particularly if they have a track record of crimes against humanity and aggressive war. Saddam was once our puppet. Now, like Noriega, he is our enemy and the people of Iraq suffer.
To hear the Kurd and Shi'ite leaders speak of hope of salvation with the help of America is to know that our cause is just.
The instability you speak of is the liberation of the Kurds and Shi'ites from oppression. This may signal the oppressed Kurds in Syria, Turkey, Iran and the oppressed Shi'ites in Saudi Arabia to rise up against corrupt dictatorships and themselves seek freedom. I say - go for it. |
Ned - Turkey is an important ally of the US from cold war days and has one of the largest armies in the world. You do realise you just advocated the US stirring up a revolution in a fellow NATO country?
Have you ever heard of the Black Sea or Bosphoros? Why do you think Europe is so keen to get involved in the Balkans (look at a map if you don't know about the proximity)
Do you see that thin bit of water? Most of Russia's Oil passes through that stretch of water. What exactly would destroying stability in Turkey do for that vital oil link?
You were aware that part of the reasoning for removing the Taliban was to restart plans to build a ****ing great big pipeline between Russia and Iran to reduce the pressure on the Black Sea routes?
Democracy and Freedom - great ideas but the effect of destroying the world economy would be worse than the effect of the Great depression in the 1930's - remember a nice man called Adolph Hitler? He was only able to come to power because the Weimar Republic failed during the depression.... We can well do without that.
More info on the Bosphorus HERE
|
|
| |
|
|
|
spartak
|
|
I understood there were two options being looked at - 1 pipeline through Iran and one through Afghanistan both aiming for the Red Sea. Happy to be corrected on the detail but I don't think it alters the point I was making....
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Pekka
|
 |
em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:21
|
|
First I thought about voting Bush, just because he has way more power and capability and influence. But then again, Saddam is not so powerless either. I'd be very disappointed if Saddam stayed and Bush had to leave.
Although I'm not the biggest fan of Dubya, I'd have to go with Saddam. There would be something fundamentally wrong if Saddam didn't have to leave.
He's far more evil than Bush, is it his fault he has less power? I say let's see this Saddam guy gone way before anyone else. I'd rather see a democrat in the lead, but before that many others has to go!
At least it's not in Dubyas goals to kill many people, maybe it comes as a result for reaching better economy, I don't know, but Saddam wants to kill, destroy, and would do it in a blink of an eye if he had the chance.
|
|
| |
|
| |
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:21.
Apolyton Time is 00:21. |
top of page
|
| archivepost |
|
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
|
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
|
|
|
|
|
|
16-08-2002 02:02
|