15-08-2002 13:52									#1
	AI settler herding Put an end to popups!

A little while ago I played a game where as the Egyptians I had the Americans and Greece as neighbouring civs agt the start. Huge map with continents, so there wasn't much in the way of war, right at start.

It was getting to the point where nearly all of the available land had been settled and Alex had been quickly hemmed by myself and Abe. He didn't have many cities so understandably he went looking for patch of unclaimed land to call his own with a settler and a warrior in escort.

He was heading for a spot with some nearby spice on the other side of my borders, which I had been planning to claim for a while but forgotten about. Somewhat stupidly I wasn't cooking up a settler so I switched production in one of my cities, but it was still going to take a few turns.

Meanwhile There were four Egyptian warriors on the way back from exploration duties to be upgraded, with the intention of unleashing the sword on Abe while I waited for Chivalry to have a crack at the Greeks. The Egyptian military was at this point "underdeveloped", so I didn't feel quite up to a war. Their paths crossed with the Greek settler just between him and his destination.

To buy some time for my settler to finish I blocked his path to the spice, making him back off. The next seven or eight turns allowed me the finish my settler, get him to that spot and gradually force the Greeks to a useless patch of jungle nicely out of my way, where they eventually built a city.

This tactic of war without war is new to me and I was wondering what other tactics people use in the early game to delay the progress of other civs without actually beating up on them?

	15-08-2002 19:09									#2
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I have done that several times during my limited experience in playing the game... especially when they go through my territory :P

anyway, when multiplayer comes... people coulkd use that as an excuse to declare war i think, lol

-Mellian

	15-08-2002 20:00									#3
	Put an end to popups!

If I've got a fairly narrow border with the AI, and especially if there's lots of unsettled land behind me, I'll build several warriors to serve as my INS Border Patrol Guards. If an AI settler/spearman combo slips across my border, I'll politely ask them to leave. If they don't, I'll have the guards simply block their progress and "escort" them back to the border. The AI hates to sit still and will almost always move its settlers, so you just have to make sure the only moves available to the unit are away from where you want them to go.

“Welcome to Rome, Sir. May I see your entry visa?”
“Ah, yes! Visa. Uh, well, I, um, think I left it in my other backpack in Persia.”
“Then I’m afraid you’ll have to leave, Sir.”
“Huh? But there’s some spice just across the hills, there. Really, I’m just passing through.”
“Not today, Sir. Please follow me.”
“But, but, but . . . the spice!”
*reaches for stone ax* “You’ll have to turn back now, Sir.”
“Oh. Oh, I see. Uh, well, it was nice to, errr, to visit, umm, Rome, or whatever. See ya later!”
*strokes axe and dreams of trading it in for an iron sword and flashy red tunic* “Oh, don’t worry. You will….”

	15-08-2002 20:23									#4
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LOL!!!

Please see the Cro-Maginot Line below. I was herding a Greek Settler/Spearman pair around, and decided to go a step further and wall off my peninsula.

And, yes, my Warriors dream of swords too.

Attachment: line.gif
This has been downloaded 194 time(s).

	15-08-2002 20:35									#5
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Herding them is great! They try to go back or go past, but turn around if the way is blocked. It's fun to open a gap two moves away. They head for it; close it, and they turn around again; repeat until you decide to kill them.

	15-08-2002 21:42									#6
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Nice job with the line blocking off the settler horde, what supries me is that you didnt build your city upon that hill. Doing so would have ensured no one could put spearmen or hoplites on it and cut off your iron. Even if you didnt know the iron was there Im suprised you didnt build on the just for the defensive bonus you would gain from doing so. Or am I completly missing why you built to the right of the hill?

	15-08-2002 22:14									#7
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I probably should have... it was a city spacing issue. See the Spearman at the top? That's becomes the site of my final forward city.

If I had been next to a tougher early civ, I probably would have anyway... BUT:
- it is Cleo after all, on a heavily forested map, which is great for Legionaries
- this is really early... I traded for Bronze Working and beelined for Iron Working (which I obviously just got)
- that's not all my Warriors (evil grin)

	16-08-2002 00:33									#8
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If you are the Egyptian and Americans are annoying you, you should start building War Chariots after founding 4 to 5 cities, then beat the crap of the Americans. It should be a quick and painless campagn, and may even get you a great leader.

	16-08-2002 08:22									#9
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Seems to me like Theseus has built his own version of the Great Wall

	16-08-2002 13:13									#10
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Looks like the L337 I>317y map, Theseus. Have you won it yet?

I use this tactic quite often if I have the units to spare or if the bottlenecks are narrow enough. Currently I am using it on the same map as Theseus, but against the Greek.

	16-08-2002 20:13									#11
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Yeah, but not giving out details until 1337 posts. BTW, I from another thread I realized that I screwed up... make sure to trigger the Greek GA.

	16-08-2002 22:27									#12
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Who cares if the Greeks have a Golden age if you have all of their cities .

	16-08-2002 23:49									#13
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True, it didn't matter in the long run... it's just a good technique to remember to use. Same for all the very early UUs.

	17-08-2002 00:55									#14
	End Run around forcing early GA Tired of ads?

Thats a good point, however in MP I dont plan on having an early GA and there is no way you will be able to force me to. I will simply keep the UUs deep within my empire forcing you to start an all out war to force my GA instead of doing a mere hit and run to force it. (Anytime a human units enters my territory I will tell them to leave or declare war). And if im in GA and your not in an all out war, you can be pretty sure you'll lose. I can also keep you from forcing GA by simply not making the UU until Im ready to have GA. (though I admit Greece would be the worst early civ to not make UU early with, simply because you have nothing else really decent to defend with.)

	17-08-2002 03:39									#15
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Theseus- I have only played the 1337 map until about 500 AD. I don't dare to attack the Greek with my pretty useless Legions. A 12-pop city with 8 veteran Hoplite defenders needs some really good luck with the dize rolls to conquer. Egypt was - well, not easy, but did eventually fall into my hands. By the way, the town you posted on the screenshot held the Colossus in my game. I razed it! Culture flipping sucks more than a few extra gold rocks, especially on deity. Did I do wrong?

	17-08-2002 03:39									#16
	Remove this text

A wall of defenders seems to be a good tactic. The ai will sneak attack a city, but I have yet to see them initiate a war by attacking a blocking line of defenders.

	17-08-2002 03:52									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Olaf Hårfagre Theseus- I have only played the 1337 map until about 500 AD. I don't dare to attack the Greek with my pretty useless Legions. A 12-pop city with 8 veteran Hoplite defenders needs some really good luck with the dize rolls to conquer. Egypt was - well, not easy, but did eventually fall into my hands. By the way, the town you posted on the screenshot held the Colossus in my game. I razed it! Culture flipping sucks more than a few extra gold rocks, especially on deity. Did I do wrong?

I don't want to give out too many spoilers, 'cause I really want to see how 1337 does.

Re the Greeks, I typically take them out with Knights. You need a LOT of Sword-level units to do it, especially once theire cities break past 6 pop.

I probably wouldn;t have razed the Colossus city... when did this happen? If it was before, say 0 AD, I doubt that Cleo would have had enough culture for it to flip very readily. Even if I were worried, I'd probably leave my attack force outside, garrison with one Legion or Spearman, and try to starve it down. Also, depending on how quickly you could take down the evil Egyptians, you could have reduced the chance of flipping in my preferred manner.

Especially with Commercial being improved, the Colossus goes a looong way in the early game.

	17-08-2002 04:13									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus I probably wouldn;t have razed the Colossus city... when did this happen? If it was before, say 0 AD ...

It was about 0 AD.

But a formerly Greek 3-size city did flip before that, with my 3 elite legions in it, despite the fact that it did never have any Greek culture whatsoever, no temple or library, nothing. It didn't get out of resistance after 10 turns, even if it had initially 4 of my units defending. I just thought the higher flipping risk was the nature of deity games ( This is my first game on that level).

	17-08-2002 04:16									#19
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Hmmm, I don;t think flipping risk (good phrase, that) changes with difficulty levels.

I'm pretty paranoid about it... I like the tactic of leaving only 1 unit in the town and parking my attack force outside... even if it flips, the re-taking of the town knocks it down 1 pop.

	17-08-2002 04:24									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Hmmm, I don;t think flipping risk (good phrase, that) changes with difficulty levels.

(I am sorry to take this thread a little out of topic)

Even after only half a game, my feeling is that deity games gives more resistance tendency to citizens of the opposing civs. I had to place more troops than the number of citizens to quell them, otherwise they stayed in total resistance forever and eventually flipped.

But perhaps I just had bad luck in this particular game?

	17-08-2002 04:54									#21
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Actually, I think it's on topic, as the possibility of culture flipping should be a consideration in the 'how' part.

In any case, one of the things I try to do is always capture cities in adjacent pairs, so that fewer tiles of each are impacted by the AI civs culture. Also, I like to start with cities on the coast, and work my way in, for the same reason.

Another thing that I do is specifically target high culture cities as my first captures... this corresponds with capturing GWs.

I definitely starve down to get rid of resistors.

I try to max out on luxuries, and make sure that the target cities are connected (for instance, in intercontinental attacks, I always include a city with a harbor in the initial city-pair). Happy cities are less likely to flip.

I don;t know if CF relates to difficulty level... I don;t think so. My guess is that the deity advantages for the AI made for bigger towns / cities, and thus you were perhaps dealing with several more resistors than you are used to.

	17-08-2002 05:12									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus I definitely starve down to get rid of resistors...

Out of topic:

So do I. Who said etnical cleansing was a bad thing?

But once I got a thread closed by a moderator after only 3 hours when I asked people what kind of bad names they used for the opposing civs (Krauts, Yankies, Tommies, Japs, Babs, Frogs etc, not to mention the bad names that would possible for the Zulus). You can starve them to death, raze their towns, pillage their farmland, murder prisoners of war (by disbanding) and backstab them when they are your allies, but if you call them bad names, you get kicked from the game discussion forum. Isn't that a contradiction?

	17-08-2002 05:27									#23
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"Herding" settlers is just more boring tedium.

This is all known as Settler Diarrhea - the crazy flood of settlers constantly violating our borders and taking their own good time to leave, or teleporting to the other side of my civ and setting up towns on open tiles they should not know exist.

It is one of the most annoying aspects of the game. And it should be fixed.

I give settlers one turn to get out by the same way they came in - or I attack them. The hell with a rep hit; I get blamed for stuff I never did anyway. I am NOT wasting my time creating a wall of workers or warriors trying to block them.

WE NEED TERRITORIAL INTEGRITY in the game.

	17-08-2002 05:33									#24
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On topic:

There's another kind of herding...

Say you start with a pretty good location, but there's some crap land near you, say desert.

If you're playing straight REX, you'll probably settle this area just for the future resources.

I say, why bother? If it's close to your capitol, LET the AI settlers in, and either CF or capture the town when the time comes!!

Not always applicable, but useful in tight games... I consider that settler / town a gift.