15-08-2002 20:22									#1
	Is there ANYBODY in the world that still denies the severity of global warming? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

The following unprecedented events are occuring all over the world SIMULTANEOUSLY:

- In Central Europe (Germany, Chechoslovakia, Austria) and in some parts of Asia (Nepal) serious floods have resulted to the death of ~300 people and to the evacuation of whole cities, causing the displacement of hundends of thousands of people, despite this happening in one of the best equipped and organised regions of the world. Note that the best part of Europe has seen unprecedented rainfall, specially the Mediterranean areas, where the freaky weather has ruined tourism.

- In the biggest part of Asia (from Afghanistan to Malaysia, to Manchuria), a 3 km thick toxic smog has forced everybody to circulate wearing gas masks and has led to the death of up to 2.000.000 people due to respiratory problems. The smog has been caused by the uncontrollable burning of biomass by the local population and by the military operations in Afghanistan.

- In North America and some parts of Asia (India) crops are destroyed by an unprecedented drought.

My country shares this freaky weather too, although it has been spared the havoc caused in the rest of the continent. Half the country has seen no rain during the whole month, while the other half has had a 200-600% increase in rainfall. Temperatures (both min and max) in July were up 1-3 degrees above normal in every part of the country.

Every damn climatologist in the world is crying that all this is caused by global warming, which is caused by the greenhouse effect, which is caused by greenhouse gases, which are produced by human activities, mainly the petroleum industry and the consumption of fossil fuels for automotion and electricity.

The United States are the biggest producer of greenhouse gases and they have increased, along with Asia, their emmisions during the 90s, despite the Rio convention and the Kyoto protocol, which the United States government refuses to ratify. The American capitalists refuse to face the climate problem at it's root and choose a self-destructive hardliner policy which basicaslly says: screw the environment, screw the planet, all we care about is profit and more profit.

All these are well known. What I am really curious about is how many people (in the US mainly) still believe in all the crap that is served to them by the petroleum magnates and continue to support the policy of the Bush administration. Basically, I am really curious to see how many morons still roam free in that madhouse of country.

So what say you?

	15-08-2002 20:27									#2
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There are a lot of people who doubt the severity of global warming

I for one think that global warming is one of the least concerning environmental concerns (I think it is slight and does not matter much compared to many other environmental problems)

I know many others who don't even think it exists

Jon Miller

	15-08-2002 20:32									#3
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I wonder if this is the 100th and 1000th version of the same exact thread.

	15-08-2002 20:33									#4
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What more proof do you need?

	15-08-2002 20:35									#5
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Say, I was going to start a thread on this, but since there's already a global warming thread here, I'll just put it in here.

I have a quizzer for libertarians. It seems to me that many libertarians around here, when asked about whether government can set policies to fight against global warming, reply by denying that global warming is caused by humans.

Well, let's say that:

- There is irrefutable proof that global warming is happening
- There's also irrefutable proof that the main cause is human pollution
- Only way to prevent global warming is for government to severely regulate private enterprise
- Damages of global warming are significantly higher than costs of controlling for pollution

Do you think that under those conditions, it would be justified for government to regulate private enterprise?

	15-08-2002 20:35									#6
	Remove this text

Actually, the drought in Western Canada isn't unprecedented; there was a far worse drought in the 1930s that turned the Prairies into a big dustbowl. Some climatoligists here in Canada believe that it's a cyclical event, and that within the next 10-20 years this magnitude drought will occur again (if this isn't it, now). I haven't heard the term "global warming" applied once to this one.

See http://cbc.ca/news/features/drought2002_timeline.html for more info.

I don't mean to downplay the potential threat of global warming, or that we don't need to clean up our pollution problems, but at the same time, not every environmental problem needs to be blamed on the same boogeyman. That's just environmental alarmism.

	15-08-2002 20:37									#7
	Re: Is there ANYBODY in the world that still denies the severity of global warming? Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by axi Basically, I am really curious to see how many morons still roam free in that madhouse of country.

Not only a bad troll... but an old troll. Don't come back until you can be more creative...
.00000001/10

	15-08-2002 20:42									#8
	Increase the size of your Attachments

The cloud in Asia isn't a "cyclical event." Nor is the melting of the ice caps, the mass flooding of central Europe, or the drought in New England.

	15-08-2002 20:42									#9
	Re: Re: Is there ANYBODY in the world that still denies the severity of global warming? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Ming Not only a bad troll... but an old troll. Don't come back until you can be more creative... .00000001/10

It's about time that people started to get banned for abusing dead horses in boring ways.

	15-08-2002 20:58									#10
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I agree with what axi is saying though. Sorry if that offends any Americans but I really do think that global warming is a major problem.

	15-08-2002 21:05									#11
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quote: Originally posted by frostycreep I agree with what axi is saying though. Sorry if that offends any Americans but I really do think that global warming is a major problem.

The fact that he says we are a cause of global warning doesn't offend me. We, LIKE THE REST OF THE WORLD, are causing it. I am offended when he calls us morons... and takes a hollier than thou attitude implying America is the only cause of global warming And that is why this is just a stupid and moronic troll... and one that has been done before as well...

	15-08-2002 21:16									#12
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Axi, Did you know that California has, on its own, passed a law limiting CO2 emissions of cars?

I also favor making choices in favor of reduced emissions. I am strongly in favor of nuclear power. The problem I see here in California is that we don't seem to want power plants here. We are quite content to buy power from outside the state at the cheapest prices. What this encourages is the building of cheap, high polluting plants in Mexico to ship power to California.

This said, the problem I personally have with "global warming" is that the "forecast" weather for the United States and Canada is "good." We will see a 100% increase in agriculture primarily due to longer growing seasons. As well, the longer growing seasons by themselves, not only here, but across the entire north, will benefit agriculture and also act as a major CO2 sink.

With all this in mind, it will be very hard for Americans to accept draconian choices to reduce global warming when the beneficiaries, if any, will be those outside the United States. It will also be very hard to pursuade Americans when we are singled out while major polluters such as India and China are not. (What is this "war in Afghanistan" bit? More outrageous anti-American crap.)

In fact, I don't understand Europe. Europe as a whole also stands to benefit. Why are they the leaders in draconian measures?

	15-08-2002 21:18									#13
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Probably just pissed about Kyoto and Bush and all that goes with it.

	15-08-2002 21:22									#14
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quote: This said, the problem I personally have with "global warming" is that the "forecast" weather for the United States and Canada is "good." We will see a 100% increase in agriculture primarily due to longer growing seasons. As well, the longer growing seasons by themselves, not only here, but across the entire north, will benefit agriculture and also act as a major CO2 sink.

But can we know for sure that what you describe will happen? So far, at least the last ten years, there has been significantly less rainfall in the agricultural states like Ohio, Indiana, and Michigan. Furthermore, the levels of the Great Lakes are the lowest they've been in the last century. So far, these "optimistic" predictions have not occured

It's hard to separate the wheat from the chaff when attributing current conditions to global warming.

	15-08-2002 21:23									#15
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I don't mind if it gets a few degrees warmer up here. We'll certainly improve in soccer.

	15-08-2002 21:27									#16
	Re: Is there ANYBODY in the world that still denies the severity of global warming? Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by axi - In the biggest part of Asia (from Afghanistan to Malaysia, to Manchuria), a 3 km thick toxic smog has forced everybody to circulate wearing gas masks and has led to the death of up to 2.000.000 people due to respiratory problems. The smog has been caused by the uncontrollable burning of biomass by the local population and by the military operations in Afghanistan.

[/QUOTE]

I knew someone would find a way to squeeze some blame to America for this.

I guess he won't be able to back this up.

I wonder how warm that cloud is.

	15-08-2002 21:29									#17
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You mean that there are floods and droughts occurring? Good lord, that's never happened before! They must have been caused by global warming, because we all know that weather systems are not complex at all and that it is therefore a relatively simple matter to isolate cause-and-effect relationships!

	15-08-2002 21:32									#18
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Actually, the drought in Western Canada isn't unprecedented; there was a far worse drought in the 1930s that turned the Prairies into a big dustbowl.

This is worse than the 30's. During the last couple of years we have had half the precipitation than the worst years of the 30's.

	15-08-2002 21:34									#19
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Kyoto would only decimate the world economy.

	15-08-2002 21:46									#20
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quote: Originally posted by axi - In the biggest part of Asia (from Afghanistan to Malaysia, to Manchuria), a 3 km thick toxic smog has forced everybody to circulate wearing gas masks and has led to the death of up to 2.000.000 people due to respiratory problems. The smog has been caused by the uncontrollable burning of biomass by the local population and by the military operations in Afghanistan.

Do you have a cite for this? A recent BBC article indicates that

quote: The haze is the result of forest fires, the burning of agricultural wastes, dramatic increases in the burning of fossil fuels in vehicles, industries and power stations, and emissions from millions of inefficient cookers burning wood, cow dung and other 'bio-fuels'

Not one word about Afghanistan or two million people killed. Guess you just threw those in for effect?

quote: Originally posted by axi Every damn climatologist in the world is crying that all this is caused by global warming

Not nearly every one. HERE is what one US government climate expert said yesterday

quote: The extreme rains in Europe are not a result of El Niņo and should not be blamed on global warming, said Christophe Cassou, a climate expert at the National Center for Atmospheric Research in Boulder, Colo. Although scientists believe global warming will create more episodes of extreme weather, no single episode can confidently be attributed to it, he said Wednesday. (edit: )Instead, a strong high-pressure area off Spain and a strong low-pressure area between Iceland and Norway are setting the stage for more storms and heavy rainfall in central and eastern Europe, Cassou said.

And just in case you think that this view of current event is limited to the US, HERE is another report from the BBC on Sunday indicating that

quote: The weather phenomenon El Nino is being blamed by scientists for the freak weather conditions which have caused chaos and many deaths around the world. .... When it last hit, four years ago, floods and drought devastated several developing countries in South America, Africa and East Asia.

, though the report does indicate farther down that

quote: Scientists say that as the planet continues to warm, these effects of El Nino will be felt more and more often

thoughthat does not appear to be part of your argument.

I think that all of the world, not just developed countries, should be doing more than they are to reduce global warming. After all, the atmosphere does not care where the next ton of pollution comes from. But it is trolls like this which make it hard to take some proponents seriously. Come to think of it, do you have any support for any of the statements you made?

	15-08-2002 21:49									#21
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I do agree that global warming is a significant factor in the current weather we're having.

And yes you are just another "American is to blame for everything" European chimp.

	15-08-2002 22:28									#22
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If you disregard the 'moron' bit the US IS singlehandedly responsible for 25% of the worlds emissions of greenhouse gases. Even if americans in general isnīt morons, the Bush administration certainly is. It seems they rather see the world perish than threaten 'the american dream'

The Kyoto protcol demands that concessions will be made by all countries, not just the US.

Cīmon people weīre all in this together!!

	15-08-2002 22:35									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Kamrat X Even if americans in general isnīt morons, the Bush administration certainly is. It seems they rather see the world perish than threaten 'the american dream'

Another troll... just more moronic crap. A little too dramitic, and totally false. The kyoto agreement is full of flaws. Just because Bush refuses to sign it DOESN'T mean that "they rather see the world perish than threaten the american dream"... Your anti american biases are showing big time...

	15-08-2002 22:40									#24
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He actually said something like "I wonīt do anything to jeopardize the american dream" this in relation to the Kyoto protocol. I think he said it in a speech about a year ago IIRC.

	15-08-2002 22:41									#25
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Has anyone got a link to the Kyoto agreement and what it consists of? Im just curious to know what it involves as its unfair of me to argue why everyone should sign it, if i dont know exactly what it involves.

	15-08-2002 22:43									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Gary Probably just pissed about Kyoto and Bush and all that goes with it.

Though if he had any idea how treaties are enforced in the USA, he'd be angry about Kyoto and the Senate.

(And perhaps Clinton, who probably knew the Senate would never ratify the treaty but signed it anyway.)

	15-08-2002 22:43									#27
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Ming, Iīm not saying that the Kyoto protocol is perfect, but at least itīs a start.

	15-08-2002 22:43									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Kamrat X He actually said something like "I wonīt do anything to jeopardize the american dream" this in relation to the Kyoto protocol. I think he said it in a speech about a year ago IIRC.

And what about the "they would rather see the world perish part"...

You just added that to make your troll sound good...
A complete lie and fabrication on your part

	15-08-2002 22:48									#29
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Can anyone here give me a run down about what the Kyoto agreement consists of? Im just really curious as i havent really looked into it before but I am worried about global warming. If it does have lots of flaws then i can understand why not everyone wants to sign it.

	15-08-2002 22:52									#30
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Not only that we are all in this together, but I might rethink and stay here in UK as by the time I will become a pensioner this will turn into a TROPICAL PARADISE

And I will not need to go anywhere else



---

seriously though,
how can you believe the political/business PR fluff, they would sell their souls for the profits, not to mention outright lie about the effects of our hughe CO2 "production", as if oil directors are any better than their tobacco industry counterparts and if anyone will be able to outlive the possible catastropphe they will be the ones.

1. do we produce extensive emissions of CO2, more than ever in earths history? - TRUE
2. does that have an effect? - True
3. Does this effect show instantanously? No - (less than 50% increase in atmosphere as opposed to the output)
4. Where does it go - forests/ oceans absorb the rest so far
5. Will this go on forever? No
6. What are the consequences once the level goes too high? - that is a question that the "politicians" and some climatologists don't seem to agree on.

The consequences can be none whatsoever - or they can be devastating climtic changes.

Just the normal logic would tell you when you change a part of a substance the qualities of the substance change in effect.

The substance is the atmosphere. Will its qualities change - undoubtebly. I think most of you will agree with me on that.

However you we will not agree how will it change, as it has not been thoughly tested i presume, and some experts disagree...

But isn't the bare fact that it IS changing enough, and that it can go horribly wrong with us unable to control the weather indeed (unless US hasn't devised one of those Tesla weather control devices )

And to make it more disturbing, you side with mr Bush who has the interests of the big business at hart and in whose interests is clearly - no th have any short term strike on our profits - and as far as they being interested in the truth, just look at their other Enron/MSI/tobacco counterparts and tell me how can you rely on them for honest (non PR spinned) opinion.