15-08-2002 20:30									#1
	Director of Exploration and Intelligence Debate Put an end to popups!

Candidates are (listed in order from nomination thread):

FlameFlash (EDP and CDC)
Lemmy (ACE and SSK)

	15-08-2002 20:35									#2
	My Position Increase Your PM Length

Probing:
First and foremost, when a new faction has been discovered, to further steps in diplomacy we need to infiltrate their datalinks so we can hopefully go in the opposite direction technologically that they are going and offer a future trade if we have peaceful relations with them.
Secondly, no atrocities. It is more underhanded than I think we should stand for, and should step forward not condone any atrocity actions made by any faction.
Thirdly, if we are forced into a war with another faction (by them attacking us) then we should rightfully attempt to take any new knowledge to us from them to even the playing field, however not risk initial war by probing a peaceful faction.
Fourth, no framing. It's underhanded and not honorable.
Fifth, if another faction appears to be building up a large group of probe teams make the suggestion that more probe teams be built on our side as a defensive measure for border cities.
Sixth, when the proper technology is available, probe teams should have 2 space sight until other, better enhancements are available specifically for probe teams.

EDIT: Removed the request probe teams be built with clean reactors per M@ni@c and Lemmy's posts.

Exploration:
To make sure there is no undiscovered island, waterway, or continent. I'm not sure how else to be clear about this. Trade maps with other factions when possible to prevent having to tresspass.
When possible build clean scout units (land, sea, and air) that can move quickly and see two squares around.

Last edited by FlameFlash on 15-08-2002 at 21:19

	15-08-2002 20:36									#3
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Questions? Points of clarification?

Lemmy?

	15-08-2002 20:36									#4
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ok what is your view on the early explor and how do you plan on making it happen. and what kind of value do you give to intel?

(i am asking both!)

	15-08-2002 20:43									#5
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quote: ok what is your view on the early explor and how do you plan on making it happen.

Early exploration should be done with rovers and scouts to first explore the entire region within our borders, and then move outward from there to discover the coasts.

As new bases spring forth, if some of our borders disappear into undiscovered territory the areas need to be explored post haste.

quote: and what kind of value do you give to intel?

Probe teams are quite valuable in using to gather information once other factions are discovered... especially to infiltrate datalinks. Even if our faction happens to be the planetary governing one there is a need to have the others infiltrated in case of being voted out at some point.

	15-08-2002 20:58									#6
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What's the use of giving probes clean reactors?

	15-08-2002 21:00									#7
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thank you flameflash i will be waiting for lemmy`s response

	15-08-2002 21:08									#8
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quote: Originally posted by M@ni@c What's the use of giving probes clean reactors?

ok, first the easy questions, none, probe teams don't require support.
That's also why i'll push to build probe teams instead of stockpiling energy.

	15-08-2002 21:17									#9
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must be a bug with my game... I'll experiment with that one sometime soon... thanks for the clarification, Lemmy, M@ni@c.

	15-08-2002 21:22									#10
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quote: Originally posted by DeathByTheSword ok what is your view on the early explor and how do you plan on making it happen. and what kind of value do you give to intel? (i am asking both!)

Rovers should be developed as soon as possible, preferably first, since the Spartans already have that, it means we could fall behind in exploration.
The Foil would be the second most important thing to research, it is quite possible that a few squares away there is another continent waiting to be colonized, which could be closer to our headquarters than other sites on our continent (efficiency).
Now about intel, i think it is one of the most underestimated aspects. That said, i don't think we should engage in heavy intel at the start of the game just yet,
first, is it in our best interest to get into a war so soon?
second, do we even have the credits for missions this early?
third, morale, there is no bioenhancement center yet, and there may not be a command center yet either, these things significantly increase probe team succes.
That doesn't mean i'm not in favor of building probe teams, on the contrary, they should be used for defense to secure our data, and in case a war did break out, we'd have them ready.

and now to write my stand on different issues...

	15-08-2002 21:29									#11
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Rovers and foils are important, however the science minister would be better equipped to figure in all of the other factors... we may need terraforming first, for instance.

Otherwise, what Lemmy said is in agreement with my statements.

Though Lemmy, while I agree we won't have the credits to support missions early on, what is your opinion on my infiltrate datalinks proposal?

	15-08-2002 22:00									#12
	My position Increase Your PM Length

Hello, i'm Lemmy, you might remember me from shows like "Myths about Atrocities" and "It's OK to be Nerve-stapled"
*waits for murmurs of agreement*

*absolute silence*

....okay...
Anyway, i'm the founder of the Sub-faction for Science and Knowledge (SSK), which has joined forces with other parties in the Apolyton Coalition for Expansion (ACE).
The SSK has two things that are most important to them, Science and Knowledge, with Science i mean any research into the 4 different areas, and with Knowledge i mean knowing what's going on around us in the other factions, and preferably predict other factions next move based on what we know.

Now that you all know who i am, a little about my viewpoints regarding this campaign.

Atrocities
Yeah, this is what you've all been waiting for, but you're out of luck, i'm not going to promote the use of them here
Just that i don't think anyone should rule them out completely, there are a number scenarios possible where the use of them could mean our very survival, where it's either them or us. However i believe and sincerely hope such a moment will never happen.

Probing Policy
No probing on any faction who we don't want a war with, unless the Probe Team can make a clean getaway.
I'm in favor of 1 probe team in every border base to protect against other probes, and having a few on stand-by near the border with other factions so they can quickly react in case of war. My primary goals with offensive probe teams, during war, would be to subvert enemy units, and retrieve other factions research data to use for ourselves.
Framing other factions
A usefull option, for example if two factions have grown to big to be comfortable with, i feel this action should be considered, but not without consulting the Commisioner, Director of Military and Citizens first

Exploring
Yes please, and as much as possible, i'll lobby with the Director of Military to temporary turn over control of any unit that isn't used during peace time to explore with, and keep an eye on Mindworm movement.
Exploring other close continents is also a very important thing for me, once colonized, it would be more difficult to eradicate our faction with a single large landforce.

Note: I'll edit this post in the future to include new issues raised during the campaign

Last edited by Lemmy on 16-08-2002 at 16:13

	15-08-2002 22:18									#13
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quote: Though Lemmy, while I agree we won't have the credits to support missions early on, what is your opinion on my infiltrate datalinks proposal?

If the mission goes wrong it doesn't only give the other faction a reason to declare war on us, it would also effect our integrity.
So i say no to it, unless there's a very good chance (90%) that the team can do it untracable.

	15-08-2002 23:19									#14
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To both Canidates: Lets say that there are only 2 factions left say us and Santiago. And we have gone to war MANY times before. And all of a sudden She discovers Advanced Spaceflight. And is threating us with PBs.

Would you:

A. Use Probes to subvert any and all PBs?

B. Use Probes to Steal said tech so we can get our own PBs?

C. Leave it to the Director of Defense

or

D. Other

	15-08-2002 23:49									#15
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quote: Originally posted by The Bloody Baro To both Canidates: Lets say that there are only 2 factions left say us and Santiago. And we have gone to war MANY times before. And all of a sudden She discovers Advanced Spaceflight. And is threating us with PBs. Would you: A. Use Probes to subvert any and all PBs? B. Use Probes to Steal said tech so we can get our own PBs? C. Leave it to the Director of Defense or D. Other

I assume we are at war with them?
Then i would definitely not leave it all to the director of military, since there isn't a better time to use probes than during war.
Point A would be almost impossible, we might have to get deep into enemy territory , and the deeper we go, the bigger the chance of getting discovered and the PB's will most likely be inside bases. Point B i would do by default, always see if the enemy has any techs unkown to us, or else get their world map. So what i would try to do is to disrupt any production of PB's.
I would also ask the Commissioner to consider genetic warfare against their big production bases to further limit the chance of them making a PB.

i have to add that i doubt this scenario can happen during the first few terms

	16-08-2002 00:10									#16
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what do you think about building a hydroponics lab as soon as we get orbital spaceflight to reveal the entire map?

	16-08-2002 00:11									#17
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quote: Originally posted by TKG what do you think about building a hydroponics lab as soon as we get orbital spaceflight to reveal the entire map?

uhm......duh

	16-08-2002 00:12									#18
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How much effort will you devote to the development and production of rovers? I means will you demand the production facilities long enough to hammer out a certain number or will you aks for time when it is available?

E.L. Crisler
First Commissioner

	16-08-2002 00:19									#19
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heh, i think i can demand all i want, it eventually depends on the Director of Base Production

But i would hammer for rovers be at least 2nd (seems like lots of people want to terraform first), and then to build a minimum of rovers depending on what the map looks like, if it's all land, then i would want at least 4, one for each direction. I think by this time we should have 2 or 3 bases, so supporting them shouldn't be too hard.

	16-08-2002 00:40									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Lemmy ...build a minimum of rovers depending on what the map looks like, if it's all land, then i would want at least 4, one for each direction.

we're playing huge planet map. if you play it enough, you know where you want to send your pods, rovers or not.

	16-08-2002 18:37									#21
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Thanks to the fact that I didn't have a chance prior to now to respond to all of the questions put forth, I will answer each in the order given, and also respond to my opponent's statements.

quote: The Bloody Boro's question... To both Canidates: Lets say that there are only 2 factions left say us and Santiago. And we have gone to war MANY times before. And all of a sudden She discovers Advanced Spaceflight. And is threating us with PBs. Would you: A. Use Probes to subvert any and all PBs? B. Use Probes to Steal said tech so we can get our own PBs? C. Leave it to the Director of Defense or D. Other

It depends on if we are at war with them currently or not. From the description of the situation I do have to assume we're looking at both possibilities.

If we are not at war, and Santiago is simply threatening us with the use of them, I would urge our science minister to as quickly as possible research the appropriate tech so that we can assure Santiago of mutual distruction if war was to break out and use of PBs was activated.

Also, hopefully the foreign minister will keep Santiago happy until the point that we have the proper tech to build our own.

quote: My opponent mentioned this in response... I assume we are at war with them? Then i would definitely not leave it all to the director of military, since there isn't a better time to use probes than during war. Point A would be almost impossible, we might have to get deep into enemy territory , and the deeper we go, the bigger the chance of getting discovered and the PB's will most likely be inside bases. Point B i would do by default, always see if the enemy has any techs unkown to us, or else get their world map. So what i would try to do is to disrupt any production of PB's. I would also ask the Commissioner to consider genetic warfare against their big production bases to further limit the chance of them making a PB. i have to add that i doubt this scenario can happen during the first few terms

If we're currently at war, then I must agree with my opponent on how to handle the situation. Steal the proper tech. If we're currently at war, and we're the only two factions left, it's highly likly that there would be no reason for Santiago to not have begun using them on us. Therefore we'd need to assist our military minister by subverting a lot of Santiago's military as well as prepare to build PBs.

Please note that I do not advocate the use of PBs or of genetic warfare for if we could beat Santiago and remain better than her it would most certainly be my desire.

Though I do certainly agree that this is something neither Lemmy nor I will probably have to deal with.

quote: TKG asked this... what do you think about building a hydroponics lab as soon as we get orbital spaceflight to reveal the entire map?

quote: My opponent responded with... uhm......duh

I'll agree with my opponent.

quote: The Commissioner Crisler inquired this... How much effort will you devote to the development and production of rovers? I means will you demand the production facilities long enough to hammer out a certain number or will you aks for time when it is available?

quote: My opponent's response... heh, i think i can demand all i want, it eventually depends on the Director of Base Production But i would hammer for rovers be at least 2nd (seems like lots of people want to terraform first), and then to build a minimum of rovers depending on what the map looks like, if it's all land, then i would want at least 4, one for each direction. I think by this time we should have 2 or 3 bases, so supporting them shouldn't be too hard.

Rovers are a must for proper exploration early on and we therefore do need to request that the Director of Base Production pump out enough that we can begin exploring within our territory and then move outward. Hopefully new cities will be rising within our territory at a fast enough pace that any rovers we are able to convince Dir of Base Production to produce are needed to further explore our own territory. Hopefully, however, the military director will agree with us and also push for more rovers so that we may explore further than our own territory and attempt to make contact with another faction early.

This also involves building not only rovers, but foils when the proper tech is discovered.

quote: TKG pointed this out... we're playing huge planet map. if you play it enough, you know where you want to send your pods, rovers or not.

How can one already know and be familiar with the map of Planet, TKG? Aren't we soon to arrive there for the very first time? Or are you aware of some previous scouts that I am not?

I hope I have answered every question to the questioner's satisfaction.

In closing I would like to respond to my opponent's response to my infiltrate datalinks proposal:

quote: If the mission goes wrong it doesn't only give the other faction a reason to declare war on us, it would also effect our integrity. So i say no to it, unless there's a very good chance (90%) that the team can do it untracable.

I would hope by now it was understandable that since I'm pushing for not being detected at what we do (hence also not framing other factions, since there is also enough of a chance two factions could start a war with us at the same time) that it would be a given that I would want to not hurt our integrity... however I was not aware that simply infiltrating datalinks and gaining knowledge of what our opponents has and what they are building in any given base was an act of war. (OOC)I've never been given the option to declare war on somebody who has just infiltrated my datalinks, even though the game usually announces the fact that another faction did. What case is it when we could actually go to war over something like that?(/OOC)

	16-08-2002 18:44									#22
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quote: (OOC)I've never been given the option to declare war on somebody who has just infiltrated my datalinks, even though the game usually announces the fact that another faction did. What case is it when we could actually go to war over something like that?(/OOC)

hmm, you could be right, i usually have enough probe defenses, and also always make sure i get the Hunter-Seeker Algorithm, that i can't really remember the last time i had a probe action against me. If it doesn't give grounds for war, then i'm all for it.