16-08-2002 04:18									#1
	Machiavelli Institute: Foreign Policy Regarding Persia Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

The Persians have paid for permission to settle in our territory. We have permission to walk all over theirs.

The Persians are currently polite towards us (just like the Greeks & Aztecs). They just built the Pyramids and probably want some room to grow.

Our war with France is a done deal. Diplomatically, we are hostile towards France as the invasion is already underway.

I believe it is time to discuss what our foreign POLICY towards Persia ought to be. Prior to today, general discussions were that we ought to cut down Persia before Immortals could be made and crush the civ entirely. Today Gepap pointed out that he felt we might be better suited having Persia as an ally given their positive disposition and proximity to England and Germany ... two of our greatest rivals.

Therefore I turn to the Institute and ask that you debate what is best for our nation. Are we better off taking Persia out? Are we better off befriending them? What is best for Apolytonia in the long run?

Discuss.

--Togas

	16-08-2002 04:59									#2
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Tough call. Persians would be a good ally, especially if we push on to take out the Greeks. I just hope can keep the Persians friendly and polite and I hope the English will keep them busy.

I would rather focus on pruning or eliminating the Greeks and nurture the Persians. If we can keep ahead of them in techs, they will reward us generously.

We can not keep starting fights with our neihghbors, getting stronger all the time without the other Civs noticing and getting jealous (annoyed or cautious at best).

We need a friend. That friend can be Persia. If we nurture them and be frindly, who cares if they get Iron. They will need it to hold off the English.

I would rather have a friend on our borders than an enemy. Besides, They could be usefull if Germany gets too big for Bismarks britches.

Later;
Mss

	16-08-2002 05:02									#3
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How about settling near that iron tile? If we hurry we might make it there before Persia's borders expand.
Another good thing about the RoP is that we'll be able to send units to spy on Persia. I believe we should build a horseman and send it to the Persian territories to gather intelligence.

	16-08-2002 05:04									#4
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I think having them as a friend will be worth wild in the long run. A war with them at this point will be very costly as they will have most likely grown durrning our time spent with france, and they will be getting a little anxious while we are still consolidating. If worse comes to worse, we can always bribe them to take on england while we sit by and watch....

	16-08-2002 05:11									#5
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In response to ManicStarSeed: I was hoping we could deny Persia iron and later attack and take the Persian peninsula (the South Western portion of their territory which is made up of a lot of precious land) but your plan sounds more sensible.
We should enter a building period after we're done with the French and the Americans and Persia as an ally could ward off potential attackers.

	16-08-2002 05:12									#6
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First thing, I'll link to the previous thread I know about sort of on this subject... actually, it's about defending against Persia, and though not much was worked out in the thread, it at least gives something to start with...

Links:
Defensive Case North/West.

Now, on to the real issue at hand...

I do think that having a powerful ally is a good idea overall, and I'd be strongly in support of allying with another mid or high level nation and working together. Having said that, I think Persia's the wrong nation for anything longer-term than a single war. Because of their highly militaristic tendencies, we'd find ourselves dragged into many wars if we ever signed a MPP, and they probably won't be very faithful allies. A more scientific civilization might be a better long-term choice...

Having said that, Persia clearly is a powerful civilizaton, and we'd do well to use them. We could pick a third nation, perhaps the English or the Aztecs (Germans would require too much commitment from us in my opinion) and ally against them -- crippling both them and Persia, and if we pick the right Civ, we won't even have to do much.

Just my two bits... if anyone can put forth a plan for keeping Persia under control, then I'd love to hear it, and would happily support a long term friendly diplomatic strategy with Persia... without such a plan, though, I'd be worried that it'd all go down the drain when Persia drifts away. In my opinion, better to be friendly with another, more peaceful nation, and then A) get first dibs at new advancements, and B) perhaps have more viable long term affects.

-- adaMada

	16-08-2002 07:32									#7
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This is a tough question. We should probably be friends with them for a while but later on we of course must attack. Persia like adaMada said should not be a long term ally.

What are our plans for after the French War?

	16-08-2002 07:38									#8
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Post french war - there will most likely be a debate as to whether we should kill of the americans, or focus on ourselves for a while continuing to use and abuse the americans.

Note: the persians are scientific and indust. I prefer to play with them.

	16-08-2002 10:12									#9
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England is a ways away and not a threat towards us. Persia is.

Of course we have an ROP with them now so there isn't much we can do for awhile.

	16-08-2002 14:07									#10
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quote: Originally posted by GodKing Post french war - there will most likely be a debate as to whether we should kill of the americans, or focus on ourselves for a while continuing to use and abuse the americans.

We can do both at the same time. We'll make a stack of a few swordsmen left from the war with France, maybe build another swordsman or two and send them off to finish the Americans who are still stuck with spearmen, archers and three unconnected, unwalled towns.

	16-08-2002 20:53									#11
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Unless we want to allow Persia iron and give them horses in the future, they're not going to be very signifigant militarily. Keep in mind, if they're a weak junior nation to us, then we're going to have to protect them when the Germans and English come conquering.

I'm not opposed to this. I often find myself giving tech or needed resources to weak nations when a bully is coming after them, but that is usually when I am too far away from the war to take advantage of the situation. That's not really the case with Persia. We can and will get involved.

I do not want England or Germany in control of Persia's land, and I definately don't want either of them to have the Pyramids.

If Persia can help us keep England and Germany in check, I'm all for supporting Persia, but if Persia is going to be a liability, I'd rather see us add Persia to our empire. All we would need to do is keep them from the iron. The rest is simple swordsman stack attacks.

--Togas

	16-08-2002 21:04									#12
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We should play Persia against England. England has Horses and Iron, whereas I think the Persians don't have Iron yet. They would be pretty evenly matched for a while, and then Persia will get Iron, giving them an advantage. Hopefully, by then both of them will have Knights, negating Persia's advantage. This would keep them off our backs.

	16-08-2002 21:16									#13
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We should have knights stationed near the Persian border. As soon as England or Germany declare war against Persia we'll attack them as well and try to take their capital city as well as the southwestern part of their territory (the fertile peninsula).

	17-08-2002 02:20									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Togas Unless we want to allow Persia iron and give them horses in the future, they're not going to be very signifigant militarily. Keep in mind, if they're a weak junior nation to us, then we're going to have to protect them when the Germans and English come conquering. I'm not opposed to this. I often find myself giving tech or needed resources to weak nations when a bully is coming after them, but that is usually when I am too far away from the war to take advantage of the situation. That's not really the case with Persia. We can and will get involved. I do not want England or Germany in control of Persia's land, and I definately don't want either of them to have the Pyramids. If Persia can help us keep England and Germany in check, I'm all for supporting Persia, but if Persia is going to be a liability, I'd rather see us add Persia to our empire. All we would need to do is keep them from the iron. The rest is simple swordsman stack attacks. --Togas

Great idea Toga!

	17-08-2002 02:36									#15
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quote: [SIZE=1] ... I think Persia's the wrong nation for anything longer-term than a single war. -- adaMada

I agree, a war or two (if we are lucky) is all we can exect out of Persia. I am mostly talking about watching our back door (with respect to Greece) for the next 750 years or so, untill greece is neutered.

The question is how do we insure that the thief doesent take advantage of that "openeing"

	17-08-2002 03:47									#16
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I think our policy will shift depending on who gets that iron deposit, the English or the Persians.

Question is, will a rival civ having iron make them a better ally, or a greater threat needing some pruning?

	17-08-2002 06:00									#17
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We want Persia as our ally. If we ally with England against Persia, then we have to fight Persia. If we ally with Persia against England, Persia and England duke it out while we sit and build our infrastructure.

	17-08-2002 06:10									#18
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Well, you cannot trust allies in this game, but certainly don't want them as an enemy. For now, we should keep them as an ally until we are powerful enough and have the leisure or need to deal with them. We definetely want to keep them from being a threats when MPP's come around. :shudders:

	17-08-2002 09:12									#19
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I think Persia will get the iron spot, because Britain already has one (and the AI pushes much less to connect to an extra resource spot).

We should be with Persia, probably until the end of the game. Let me explain why :

- They have 2 luxuries we don't (Incense and Spices), and we'll have 2 luxuries they don't (dyes and wines). With so much trade between the 2 nations, we can hope for some long term good-relationship.

- Because of their lack of Iron and Horses, Persia is a weak military power until at least gunpowder comes out. This said, it wont profit from its Immortals to conquer land. IMO, Persia will be a medium or small power in the future, because of lack of expansion.

Because of all these reasons, I think Persia is the least threatening Civ north of Apolyton. Let's face it : all betraying violent bastards (Liz, Otto and Xerxes) are next to each other. We have to pick the less evil among them to get rif of the most evil (namely, the Germans)

I think war with Germany is the only necessary war of the medieval era. Xerxes could be a good ally (meaning : someone who doesn't attack you while your forces are elsewhere) in that situation.