16-08-2002 06:42									#1
	Paris and the Great Library Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I am setting this up as an informational poll, however i would prefer if people posted their oppinions


Paris is currently building the Great Library. We will soon own paris. We do not yet know the following:

1) how many turns will it take to build
2) who else is closer to construction (if any)
3) if they do not build it, what they may switch to
(I suspect the great wall will be first choice)

If we declare war the AI will switch paris from what it is building to something new - most likely an offensive unit. Prior to declaring war, we will open an embassy and see how many turns are left. If it is many turns, obviously we will continue and take the city. But what if there are only a few. Do we wait? If so, how many turns is a few? 3 - yes. 10 - maybe?, 20 - ????

remember, the longer we wait, the harder this war will be on us.

The vote is for how many turns you think we schould let the AI have (after we open the embassy and know for sure) to try and build a wonder for us.

	16-08-2002 06:47									#2
	Got spare money?

I voted 0

the GL will not warrant putting our attack in jeapordy

we need to pounce ASAP... techs are coming and going too quickly for the GL to matter this much.

	16-08-2002 06:47									#3
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We could really use great library, so I went all the way to ten turns, though if we get information that the AI will get pikemen anytime soon I'd change my mind and want to go ASAP.

-- adaMada

	16-08-2002 06:48									#4
	Inflate your Upload Space

I would vote for setting up an embassy or doing an investigate city (if we already have one). Lets talk about facts in the light of other things we can find out once we know those facts.

BTW, how many other civs are working on GL? When did they start? Did they switch from an earlier wonder?

The French may be 6 turns from it, but some other civ may very well finish in 5. Bad news.

	16-08-2002 07:00									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Unfortunately, many of the bits of info we would like to have have to wait until we open our embassy. We will most likely plan on doing that immediatly before we declair war, so we gain the most benifit of looking inside their capitol (and our first target).

We do not yet know how long it would take for them to get pikemen, perhaps even next turn they will get them. All this is unknown. And not knowing just sucks big time.

I set this up however, because I haven't seen much in the way of discussion on this topic, and to help our future administration in formulating a policy that they can use for dealing with the french pigs. I voted 10 turns, because we will still need 5 or so more to get into position for the initial attack. Even the 10 turns I would give them may be too many for us to mount a very effective attack. Luck of the draw.

Unfortunately, even if we do wait, they may not get it. They may get nothing at all as many other civs are working on wonders (see GePaps excelent summery thread for what we do know).

I do think that with our lagging behind in science, we can tech whore even better with the GL.

	16-08-2002 07:05									#6
	Support Apolyton

I do think the length to their producing a Wonder could be a strategic variable and would certainly like to capture the Great Library.

	16-08-2002 17:18									#7
	Full PM-box? Change here!

15 turns. All this cr** about pikemen doesn't scare me.
Remember if we don't let them build it they'll get another unit if they switch to one from the GL.

	16-08-2002 20:29									#8
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I think the probability of the French getting the G.L. is not so great. They got a boost while making the Pyramids (industrious) but now they loose tthat making the G.L. while the Grreks and other scienftific civs, like Germans, Russkies, and Babs, have gained the boost. As I have said before, I peg the Greeks as getting it, buteven if its not them, it will porbably be someone Scientific. Oh, and oppening an embassy should be priority #1 once the next government takes over.

	16-08-2002 20:29									#9
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

0 turns. With all the other guys around, the chance that the French get to build the GL is far from 100%.
And we're late already. Sure, Paris won't build units and will build its wonder instead. But don't forget other ciites aren't busy with a wonder, and are probably chunrning out units, incl. swordsmen (France has iron now).

Since technology goes very fast, and that all ancient wonders get obsolete except pyramids, whatever the wonder the French will come up with will have a very short lifespan.
Thus, the interest of a wonder would be culture. Unfortunately, captured wonders don't build culture. But keeping their wonders away from the French will make them more furious than necessary.

We must not jeopardize our blitz for something as random / shortlived as the mythical GL in Paris.

	16-08-2002 20:57									#10
	Support Apolyton

I say that we should not wait over three turns from the point that we would be waiting to attack. Three turns won't give them enough time to build many more units, and will not hurt the effectiveness of our blitz. Also, any longer than that and we can't be sure someone else will build the GL. If someone else does build it in three turns, we lose some time, but not much. So I say three turns.

	17-08-2002 09:55									#11
	Inflate your Upload Space

3 Turns at most.

The Libary becomes obsolete when Education is discovered. This is three picks into the medieval tech tree which is not that far off. (Monetheism --> Theology --> Education) The current policy of techwhoring seem to be working well enough at the moment.

It would be good to have but as Paris is (hopefully! ) about to become our biggest city we shouldn't get too greedy. Focus on capturing it.

	18-08-2002 20:20									#12
	Increase the size of your Attachments

There are some mountains , but they are not mined , ones we have that city , we should mine them !

	18-08-2002 20:36									#13
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I could wait 3-5 turns or so if the Library would be completed in that time. but i'd like a spot check of all the other civs building it.

	18-08-2002 21:34									#14
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quote: Originally posted by UberKruX I could wait 3-5 turns or so if the Library would be completed in that time. but i'd like a spot check of all the other civs building it.

hi ,

we could wait indeed unitl its there , then the turn its builded we should grab it , .....

in the mean time we could use the time to get more units , you love that Uber , and to get them in place , ...

have a nice day

	19-08-2002 02:32									#15
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It's taken for granted that we are going to establish and embassy and investigate Paris. So to find out that they are only 5 turns away from a wonder and then just barge in and take the city before it's built would be insanity. A lot of resources go into building a wonder, if we capture the city when it's nearly done we'd have wasted a lot of resources and a lot of culture... such a waste.
I say wait minimum five turns, maybe 10 if they don't look to be getting pikemen very soon.

	19-08-2002 08:04									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

How do we interpret this poll. My opinion is the point where 1/2 say stop is the time to wait, right now that is 5 turns. Is that a correct interpretation?
Aggie

	19-08-2002 09:00									#17
	Got spare money?

I doubt even if they get the library if we'd get any techs out of it given how close we are to education anyways. We'd almost have to try to get techs out of it to do so (ie. hold off on trades cause we know we'll get them free anyways).

The only real long term value it'd have to us is culture. Given that is a good value though, id say id be willing to wait up to about 5 turns, but certainely no more.

	19-08-2002 14:33									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Reddawg It's taken for granted that we are going to establish and embassy and investigate Paris. So to find out that they are only 5 turns away from a wonder and then just barge in and take the city before it's built would be insanity. A lot of resources go into building a wonder, if we capture the city when it's nearly done we'd have wasted a lot of resources and a lot of culture... such a waste. I say wait minimum five turns, maybe 10 if they don't look to be getting pikemen very soon.

hi ,

why should we get an embassy , it shall only cost money and they shall only use it to spy on us , ....

and we are going to take it anyway , ...

we can collect enough information for free , .....

have a nice day

	19-08-2002 16:09									#19
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Panag,

1) How exactly are we going to know if they are building the GL and how many turns they have left without establishing an embassy?

2) Why worry about them spying on us? After the war there won't be much left of them, not enough to attack us forcefully anyway and eventually we'll destroy what's left in a 2nd campaign.

	19-08-2002 23:22									#20
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We wouldn't get any culture. Only the civ that builds a wonder can gain culture from it. We would be getting the benifit of the wonder only.

By the way this is working out, it sounds like most people think wait only a couple of turns at the most if it looks to be possible.

	21-08-2002 14:11									#21
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Shiber Panag, 1) How exactly are we going to know if they are building the GL and how many turns they have left without establishing an embassy? 2) Why worry about them spying on us? After the war there won't be much left of them, not enough to attack us forcefully anyway and eventually we'll destroy what's left in a 2nd campaign.

hi ,

try shift and an F key , ....

2 : we should not wipe them of the face of the earth !
they could be usefull , and we could have fun to play a bit around with them !

also we should not give out free info , like when they are in our territory , they can see a couple tile's away , stuff like that , ....

and with an embassy there is always the risk that they spy on us , and it costs a large amount of money to get that spy out , and we dont even know if there is a spy , ....

have a nice day

	21-08-2002 15:48									#22
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by panag try shift and an F key , ....

There is no such hotkey.

quote: Originally posted by panag 2 : we should not wipe them of the face of the earth ! they could be usefull , and we could have fun to play a bit around with them !

Other than blocking Greece from expanding into Abananaba Minor I see no use for the French. It would be best to finish them off in a 2nd campaign later on.

quote: Originally posted by panag and with an embassy there is always the risk that they spy on us , and it costs a large amount of money to get that spy out , and we dont even know if there is a spy , ....

So what if they investigate some of our cities? It's not like it's gonna help them. Once we take Paris and the rest of their major cities they will no longer be a threat. Unless we lose this campaign, they're gonna end up like America did.

	21-08-2002 15:53									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

hi ,

Shiber ,

shift + F7 = wonders of the world , ...

as for the French , well we can allways sell old techs , trade , ....

the embassy is in general terms , ....

why should we waist money , we can collect the info a large amount of info without it , ...

have a nice day

	21-08-2002 23:11									#24
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quote: Originally posted by panag shift + F7 = wonders of the world , ...

Actually, you only need to press F7.

quote: the embassy is in general terms , .... why should we waist money , we can collect the info a large amount of info without it , ... have a nice day

Yes, but we won't know how close to completion the GL is without an embassy, as they're the only way to actually see an enemy's city screen before the Intelligence Agency.

	21-08-2002 23:30									#25
	Remove this text

I thought that if you capture a Wonder, you don't get the accumulated culture, but it's reset to zero and you get the per/turn culture and start re-accumulating culture. You know what I'm saying? hard to explain.

	21-08-2002 23:46									#26
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The lands of the French are more important than the GL. Besides the fact that the frogs are unlikely to get the GL anyway, we will need our armies elsewhere fast, so I say, 0 turns.

	22-08-2002 00:04									#27
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When it comes to culture, wonders are like regular buildings. If you have a city with a library and you lose it, you keep the culture points that you've earned from the library while you owned it and the new owner (the civ that conquered your city) begins accumulating culture from your library. The same is for wonders.
In other words, we'll enjoy the cultural benefits of the GL if we capture it.

	22-08-2002 00:05									#28
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

If 0 turns wins and it's 1 turn away from building it when we plan to attack will we really attack.?

	22-08-2002 00:11									#29
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Everyone, just keep in mind that there are 9 other civs building the GL as well so the odds that France will finish the GL are 1 out of 10.
Of course if we establish an embassy and see that they're only a few turns away from completing the GL we should wait, but 3 or 4 turns should be the max.

Anyway, I think we're holding this discussion prematurely. Unortho has said that he's going to play the game until the point just before we declare war on France so my guess is that he's going to establish an embassy and see what's up. This way we'll have time to discuss until Sunday, when the next turns will be played.

	22-08-2002 01:27									#30
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I voted for three turns, but I would hope that if we get new intel, a new poll would be set up in light of it so we'll have a chance to make a more informed decision. Personally, since the GL is the main reason why we're forestalling the attack, I find a poll created with no information about how soon the GL will come in to be a bit nonsensical.