16-08-2002 19:20									#1
	Iroquois - How deal with them? Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I need advice on playing vs Iroquois. In all previous games they have been far away and been a great peaceful trading partner. However I am losing in new game. What can I do?


Game env:
6 civs: germany, iroquois, russia, amer, ?, ?
land mass: continent
level: regent
Playing: germany
Current location-- alone on continent with only Iroquois.
year-- about 2000bc

Problems:
1. Iroquois ahead in score & power
2. Military avg, 6 warriors, 2 workers
3. Iroquois out expanding: 3 cities when I had 1, now 4 to my 3, but sure more Iroquois settlers are coming
4. Iroquois line of cities cut off 3/5th of continent
5. Iroquois has horses, I have none
6. Iroquois cities located by water, my closest water is 30 tiles away and need city line and time to get water to cities
7. Iroquois will have nasty mounted horse [3.1.2] and I will have what, spears.
8. closest horse is 30 tiles away and need to squeeze pass Iroquois city to get there.
9. can't seem to get cities working fast enough with food/shields/settlers
10. Can't use archers/horse with no horse and going against mnted horse.
11. can't be peaceful, as will be lucky to get 1/4 of continent.
12. Unknown if have iron, will know in about 12 turns.


Ideas?

	16-08-2002 21:20									#2
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

yea, you are pretty much dead meat from what it looks like at this point. You have a couple options, both of which involve the key resource, HORSES:

1) Start over, but on the same map. On your re-do, build more settlers and warriors. Don't screw around. Cramp the Iriquois style by building more cities in better locations. Most importantly, beat them to the horses, if you can. An Iriquois without horses is a like a man without his...manhood.

2) If you insist on not restarting (as that is somewhat cheap and bordering on cheating), focus on your own cute little military (of which workers do not consists, FYI). Once you find iron, get there and start pumping out swordsmen (more warriors if you don't have iron). Take your swordsmen and arrange them so that, once you initiate war, they can run through the I's territory and pillage all roads connected to the horses. This will prevent them from coming down on you with their MW's (except for the ones they already have built) until they rebuild roads - which you, being the savvy strategist you are, won't let happen. Raze any of the towns they have with locations you don't like, keep the ones that will help you win the war. Defend your cities with spearmen. And if you haven't done so already, build some barracks!!! Never go to war without veteran units. Like, duh. Good luck, and let us know if you can overcome those sissy feather-wearing Iriquois.

	16-08-2002 21:30									#3
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

yeh, I figured it was restart time.

Can't deny horses as they are within 10 tiles of initial Iroquois capital.

With no water can't restrict Iroquois start.

Yes, one barracks, don't think it will help enough.

If you haven't seen it, Theseus started a great thread on early game.

I plan to keep Iroquois, Russia, Amer, and set other 2 civs random for restart. So early in game, no emotional attachment, but would be interesting to have a restart where on same continent with Iroquois. I have not tried early war with them yet.

Thank you for the feedback.
--PF

	16-08-2002 21:33									#4
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Tough situation, I would say. The iron will be decisive. If you get it then there might be a good chance of surviving their initial Mounted Warrior advantage... if not, time to restart or call for Aeson...

In my last game (Monarch), Iroquois grew to be the largest empire throughout the early to mid medieval times. Later, they became the first to leave the game. One obvious reason was that Hiawatha wasn't actually a big peacemaker and most other civs, including me, got pissed off... the other reason, I believe, was that he overstretched his empire... seems like your game might be similar.

I am definitely not an expert, but I would probably try to grab as much land as possible, even if it means just 1/4 of the continent. As soon as you will not be able to expand further, start building up your infrastructure and military. Military should have priority I think... the stronger your army, the lower the chances that Hiawatha will come to blackmail you. If you can get to pikes and knights, you'll be much better off.

Would you be able to post a savegame? Tips could be more specific then...

Good luck!

Edit: some fine ideas, IW. Building barracks in every single "front-line" city would be a must. Barracks help both with the defense (by healing your hurt troops) and offense (by building veteran units).

	16-08-2002 21:36									#5
	Inflate your Upload Space

Don't try to compete with Iroquois with Settler buildings, you can't win here. But since they expand like crazy, their cities should not be too well protected. Another factor that speaks in your favor is that you 2 are alone on the continent, meaning the tech rate will be slow. It's very likely that Iroquois doesn't have horseback riding yet.

Your strategy now is build a strike force between 6 and 8 archers, and go on offensive right away. Your first target should their horse supply.

	16-08-2002 21:37									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Sell 'em whiskey and mop up

	16-08-2002 21:41									#7
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I understand. I am tempted to see if I can get horse and iron. If not it is definitely a lost cause. If I decide to play game cause I got iron and horses, I can get a .sav file.

As mentioned in start, have not had a problem with Iroquois at all before because only dealt with them at late ancient+ era. It seems they always get weaker as game progresses, just the opposite of Russians and French.

again thanks for answering. I will see about iron and horses and carefully read Theseus thread about early game before deciding to continue/start new game with same civs

	16-08-2002 21:50									#8
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

He can't wait for Iron, that's another 12 turns away. By then the Iroquois will have their dreaded Mounted Warriors and a Golden Age. He would be toast.

	16-08-2002 22:03									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

props to Grumbold for the humor! Hee-Haw! If only that were an option.

	16-08-2002 22:05									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I was married to an Iriquois gal for 25 years and have experience fighting them that can help you.

In this case, IMO, the relative position on the continent is actually in your favor, apart from no horses.

They are going to spend tons of resources building cities. Let them do so. Stop building new cities soon, but get some iron. Build barracks and swords. It will be no surprise to me that your small civ's focus on military will prove more powerful than their large civs overextension. The IA always goes crazy if you let them have space to expand. (BTW, I give you 50-50 odds of winning even if you have to do it with archers.) One trick, get them to spending their MWs fighting you on your road system, where you are just as fast as they are. Good luck.

	16-08-2002 22:35									#11
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

The Iroquois, as I've said before, are a 9.0 on my "scares-the-crap-outta-me-o-meter" (STCOMOM), due to the power of the Mounted Warrior. I have noticed, however, that they rarely press their advantage, which may warrant a drop in their STCOMOM rating.

The AI is usually ripe for the picking while they are still in expansion mode. I would get a nice core of cities built up, churn out veteran warriors, and upgrade them to swordsmen (this does require iron, but you're likely to be able to find a source). Then target Hiawatha's horse supplies. Avoid actually declaring war until you have to, then cut the horses (and iron). Now you're in a slugfest, but you may find that his defenses are thin. Again, when the AI is in expansion mode, all they really build are settlers and spearmen.

-Arrian

	16-08-2002 23:02									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

give me the sav. i'll play it out and you can see what you should have done

	17-08-2002 00:46									#13
	Inflate your Upload Space

The iroquois are a nice civ to play as, their horses are very dangerous, but you can counter them by attacking with archers, and using catapults to weaken them so they can't withdraw before dying.
Germanys a pretty good civ, but you need to try and match the iroquois great religious culture value.

You could always try getting the Russians to help you, they have a good cavalry army normally (those cossacks are cool, though they won't have them for a longwhile).. Just declare war on the Iroquois and then Get russia to Ally with you against them.. increase taxes to pay the russians as soon as you can.
Who knows, the russians have a nice navy I think.. maybe they'll save the day, and damage each of their nations in the process.
Divide and conquer is the best solution inthis game, though you'll have to defend yourself well.. maybe try for some blitzkreig attacks on the iroquois in a couple of places to scare them, and pillage all their production.

	17-08-2002 01:04									#14
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Admiral PJ The iroquois are a nice civ to play as, their horses are very dangerous, but you can counter them by attacking with archers, and using catapults to weaken them so they can't withdraw before dying.

Interesting, there is hope for a bad start. I didn't know catapults would keep them from retreating. Actually I don't think they do but the effect is the same if a weakened unit doesn't have enough life it dies instead of retreats.

Hate to restart too quickly. It is always easy to restart but I tend to learn less. Now at diety that might be a different story, but should not matter at regent.

	17-08-2002 01:32									#15
	Got spare money?

I don't believe catapults will stop mounted units from retreating. As a matter of fact, I'm almost positive that's not true. They certainly would help, but I find catapults largely useless... bombard units don't really pull their weight until artillery. Build an attack unit instead.

-Arrian

	17-08-2002 01:42									#16
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Arrian I don't believe catapults will stop mounted units from retreating. As a matter of fact, I'm almost positive that's not true. They certainly would help, but I find catapults largely useless... bombard units don't really pull their weight until artillery. Build an attack unit instead. -Arrian

Yeah, my experience also. Offensive units are really needed and can't afford bombardment units for campaigns. They are great at bottlenecks and holding positions but not good on advancing. They work but not as well as another offensive unit. If unlimited gold, sure bring them along, but I am always short on gold, so give me offense.

	17-08-2002 01:48									#17
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I think Adm. PJ meant taking them down to 1 hp, in which case, no retreat.

I don;t use Cats much either... although the concept works, esp. hitting them on open ground, I'd rather have more Swords.

PF, did you re-start? I don;t think you need to... can you eyeball appr. how many cities you think you and the Iroqouis will each have? For remaining new cities, assume Iroquois at 4 tile spacing, and you at 3.

	17-08-2002 01:56									#18
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Theseus I think Adm. PJ meant taking them down to 1 hp, in which case, no retreat. I don;t use Cats much either... although the concept works, esp. hitting them on open ground, I'd rather have more Swords. PF, did you re-start? I don;t think you need to... can you eyeball appr. how many cities you think you and the Iroqouis will each have? For remaining new cities, assume Iroquois at 4 tile spacing, and you at 3.

Not at home, no change during the day.

Again, I can always restart, but intrigued by the challenge of trying a different approach with the Iroquois.

Don't know on cities, there are 3 key locations pending rush to plant:

1. about 12 tiles SW away from Iroquois with food bonus, can't recall if game or what.

2. about 12 tiles E of Iroquois to provide access to small finger of continent

3. about 16 tiles NE of Iroquois with horse resource.



I usually try to save about every 10 turns so if I ever decide to I can go back and replay.
Currently have 3 saves, 4000BC, about 2200BC, and current year about 1800bc.

	17-08-2002 02:04									#19
	Re: Iroquois - How deal with them? Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by planetfall I need advice on playing vs Iroquois. In all previous games they have been far away and been a great peaceful trading partner. However I am losing in new game. What can I do?

If possible, post a link to your save game. I can't give you any good advice until I can fully evaluate your situation. I'm sure we can locate a nice little battlefield to setup a trap to wipe out their force once and for all. Just because they are stronger, that doesn't mean they are smarter.

	17-08-2002 02:10									#20
	Suffering from ads?

If I understand correctly, #1 is possibly within your reach?

I'm also gonna guess that you could squeeze 1-2 towns into your existing territory... even if you assume that you might disband them later when your main cities need the land.

So, I'm willing to bet that you can get to 6 towns, albeit a little cramped compared to the Iroquois, but that's OK.

Hopefully you've got 1-2 luxuries... this can delay the need for temples.

ALL towns get barracks, and all build Warriors. Balance your research so that you get IW just when you have enough gold to upgrade at least 12 to Swordsmen.

Two stacks of 6 each take out two Iroquois towns on the same turn... you'll be OK after that, just keep on upgrading the remaining Warriors and building new Swordsmen, until Hiawatha screams for mercy not to take his last two cities (which should be crappy, btw). Extort all techs and money. Focus on building your towns. At some point, take him down.

	19-08-2002 21:01									#21
	Help pink slime spreading Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by UberKruX give me the sav. i'll play it out and you can see what you should have done

First- how did you create the custom avatar?

Second, interested in seeing what I did wrong. Big problem now is china has over 1/3 of the world. Even if I succeed in taking out Iroquois, don't think I can get to China before Russia is gone.

Included in zip:

1. 2800bc-- situation before post
2. 1575bc-- situation at time of post
3. 1130bc-- situation when iroquois started war
4. 1380ad-- current situation.


Comments:
1. goofed in only taking one Iroquois city and settling too early for peace
2. really goofed in not getting city with saltpeter. Only 2 saltpeters on continent. Iroquois has one and Amer has other.
3. Currently going to try going for saltpeter rather than waiting for nationalism. Difficulties: strong military, but with swords and horse and spears. Iroq. has some calvary and some musketmen. Iroq is about 4-5 techs ahead, nationalism must be coming up soon. To get military tradition which Iroq have, had to give luxury to china; not good long term play. Really discouraged with this game.

Really looking for ideas on other ways of playing it.

thanks

-PF

	19-08-2002 21:23									#22
	Suffering from ads?

build 20 archers an destroy their empire.

My latest game at regent went like this:

it was me (Egypt) on a medium continent. South were the indians. North the Persians. And east the babylonians. I had time to build 3 cities and the whole continent was completely settled by everyone. On average the others had 3-4 cities. Everyone on the continent declared war, cause I had one of 3 cities with iron, and almost no military because I had already built 3 wonders, 1 in each city (wow!).

Persians had their immortals. Babylonians had their bowmen. Indians quickly made peace. And I had my chariots. Very ugly situation. I ended up giving away Memphis, the city with iron, in order to attain peace.

WHAT YOU SAY? Yes, I gave them my only source of iron.

Fast-forward 20 turns later. I have 2 swordsmen (I started them before I made peace) and 20 war chariots. The babylonians didn't stand a chance. I took back my city, then started building swordsmen again, then took their whole empire.

The moral of the story? No situation is completely hopeless, at least at Regent So make your 20 archers and strike HARD, straight to deprive the Iroquois of their horses, then mop up the rest.

	20-08-2002 04:04									#23
	Full PM-box? Change here!

planetfall:
i usually play at higher difficulties so this was a nice challenge at a lower level.
it was not lost at all by a good shot at the 1300bc(?) save...that's where i picked up. i didn't keep a detailed chronology of events but basically this is what happened.

the AI does not have advantages at this level so it can't crank out units that fast so long as u have a well prepared military. i took ur warriors and back to a home city with barracks to wait for iron. i mined and roaded the grassland area around the capital and squeezed several cities. ur city placement is not optimal ( u can squeeze a lot of cities in that grassland area).

===>mining(M) and roading(R) on grasslands should become second nature to ur fingers. this process increases both shields and gold.

i also lowered science to get ready to upgrade the warriors.

once iron was discovered every city started producing swordsmen and i transported them to border cities near the iroquois.
when i had around 20 swordsmen i struck three cities, taking them on the first turn. my other cities continued to resupply swordsmen at a nice rate, also producing settlers to settle in the newly auto-razed cities. most of the horses were not connected to salamanca and so they only produced 1 MW which i killed with swordsmen.
they made the pyramids in salamanca which i captured a few turns later. i used a leader to build the hanging gardens.

iroquois disappeared around 10ad....

i met the americans and exchanged polytheism/monarchy for several techs.

i didn't want the americans on the continent so as soon as i collected enough swordsmen near the american border i attacked them. after kicking them off the continent i sued for peace for comms with the russians who gave me comms with china.....

i build up tons of horsemen for later upgrade to knights.


now i am trading all the luxes with everyone for techs. i am discovering new techs at 5-6 turns. i have pyramids, sun tzu, smith's, js bachs's..

it's pretty much won at this point.



things i did differently from u:
1) no unnecessary improvements - changed the grannary to barracks in berlin.
2) mining and roading the area around the capital like crazy.
3) cranked out swordsmen from every city.
4) squeezed in more cities in the little space
5) did not sue for peace even though the iroquois wanted to talk.

edit: i started from the 1575bc

Attachment: german1255ad.zip
This has been downloaded 3 time(s).

Last edited by wohmongarinf00l on 20-08-2002 at 04:12

	20-08-2002 04:31									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

My kind of playbook.

Questions:

How many towns did you have in Germany's original area?

Did the Irq have anything to offer before the final slaughter? I woulda took it, and then massacred them anyway.

	20-08-2002 08:59									#25
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

1575 save

First I took berlin off granary, and put it on temple, so i don't have to deal with any annoying culture flips.

I got a barracks in hamburg, and built settlers and warriors everywhere. Then when I got iron working I hooked up the iron, and upgraded for three swordsman, which went to niagara falls and killed its two spearmen defense (one had been poprushed, so it wasn't fortified.) Also, because of the poprush, it was size one, so it was autorazed.

Then the Iroquois didn't have horses near their capital, their main production center. So I systematically hunted down the Iroquois cities with packs of three or four upgraded swordsmen to a city. By 730 BC, they were down to three cities, and I had taken their capital. I got one more city in the peace treaty. I left them with the crappy jungle in the north.

Attachment: bismarck of the germans, 730 bc.sav
This has been downloaded 1 time(s).

	20-08-2002 09:38									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I would not be too concerned about Iroquois. But Chinese are really scary in your game.

	20-08-2002 11:25									#27
	Inflate your Upload Space

theseus:
6 towns in total in the line below niagara falls. they built 2 cities on spots i wanted. i destroyed them because i wanted them gone from the continent quick but i suppose i could have backstabbed them...i backstabbed in the rest of the game anyway.

	20-08-2002 20:13									#28
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Thanks for the input. Guess I need to learn to be even more aggressive. I still have 3 american cities on continent, and Iroquois have 3 cities left. I gambled on getting sole saltpeter before they had nationialism.

Yes the pink horde is very bothersome, don't think I can really count on Russia for much help. Since amer has infantry and my war production is not ready yet, plans are:

0. get production as high as possible
1. attempt to get Hoover
2. get factories in all cities
3. 10 turns before tanks, MPP with Russia
4. take out Amer (maybe Iroquois)
5. try to get 2 front war with china afterwards



BTW-- it seems govt change is much, much longer in 1.29. Instead of taking 4 turns,
it is taking 6-8 turns.

• is this normal?
  
• is there a preference to reduce this to 4 turns?
  
  

	21-08-2002 05:17									#29
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

govt switching for non-religious civs takes 4-8 turns...it all depends on the random number generator...
i might try to play with ur 1380ad save and see how fast i can catch up...

i finally finished the game....took the remaining americans with cavalry and the chinese and russians with panzers around 1760ad. the chinese and russians had shared off the zulu between them.

	21-08-2002 17:15									#30
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by planetfall BTW-- it seems govt change is much, much longer in 1.29. Instead of taking 4 turns, it is taking 6-8 turns. is this normal? is there a preference to reduce this to 4 turns?

You can mod the max and min number of turns for government switching in the editor. Of course that won't have any impact until you start a new game.....